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@rubyred wrote:
I would rather. shoot my own Erse than vote for Ukip.
and my erse is about the best thing about me !!
Best quote of the day!
Love it.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
“They don’t like it up ’em”
Is that a humorous quote about our old WWII enemy set in the past, or a statement about the EU from UKIP?
:lol:
Maybe it will bring the Conservative party closer to the people.
But the main question for the viewing public is “does she look good in a bikini?”
:lol:
@momentaryloss wrote:
@terry wrote:
@panda12 wrote:
I’m sure some American Republicans though, think it was Obama.
What makes you so sure and which Republicans think that?
Oh hang on, it’s just you being panda isn’t it? In other words…bul.ls.hit :roll:
Panda’s point is a little sensational however many in the tea party think that Obama is muslim or a muslim sympathiser, and that he was born outside the US despite a birth certificate that says otherwise.
This is not private talk but aired publicly in serious political shows. The level of paranoia that these people have about Obama is quite scary to see.
:shock:
@terry wrote:
@panda12 wrote:
However, my main concern is that should we leave the EU we will become isolated and they will impose high, Protectionist trade tariffs upon us which will cripple us and cause the cost of living to rise to such an extent that we no longer live but exist.
This is the view that Sceptical Guy, Gordon Brown, momentary loss and Tony Blair hold on to. It’s the fear factor that holds no water and is designed to persuade the public to override their gut feelings about the corruptness of the EU.
Wanting to stay part of the EU doesn’t mean accepting everything about how it runs.
I resent many of the things done in my name by the UK government. I wince at the bunch of public schoolboys (and it is boys not girls) telling me they are in it with me. We have a corrupt tax system, laws which mean that aristocrats can bar our access to our own countryside, there is no respect for public service, there is a pervasive blame culture which prevents anyone from doing anything innovative, we clearly are moving in the direction of having little social conscience, except for blaming scroungers who have been made redundant as a result of no fault of their own. We are happy to see Greece slide into nazism when we know that holding it to its debt will ruin it for decades (last time we did that it was Germany in the twenties and thirties and look how that ended up).
Despite all of the above, I choose to live here and will fight for the type of country I want to see.
Europe is our future. Instead of running away, we should fight for the sort of Europe we want to see, and do it from inside. We should not be messing around with a lunatic fringe in the European Parliament like a bunch of spoiled kids. Cameron could be Angela Merkel’s closest confidante and have real power. If he wants to stop federalism, how about actually turning up to the party, rather than sneering from the wings?
Having a vote about being in or out of Europe? That’s a joke. We are already associating with idiots and hanging out the window, wondering why nobody listens to us. For all you despise them, the Europeans listened to Blair and Brown. You do not agree with what they did with that power but that is nothing to do with our membership of the EU, rather the actions of the two men concerned.
You gotta be in it to win it.
@terry wrote:
@momentaryloss wrote:
It therefore comes down to ideology.
In reality it comes down to profit and loss and the EU is (always has been and always will be) a trading loss for the UK.
It’s all very well to say we can’t survive without being members of the EU, but that is a completely ridiculous standpoint to have.
China isn’t a member of the EU and they are major traders with all European nations.
Membership of the EU is not a prerequisite for trade and our future well-being is dependant on abandoning the political union we have with the EU.
Interesting selective quote.
What I said was “It therefore comes down to ideology and whether we believe the rest of the world wishes to give us some kind of special status if we are no longer tarred with the EU brush. That is possible. I just don’t think it is very likely.”
Everything has an element of ideology. I am an internationalist. I believe that there are good practical reasons for that, one of them being reducing the chances of war and social discord.
Wanting the UK to stand alone and negotiate with like minded states elsewhere in the world is of course a Realpolitik/balance of power ideological stance, akin to the one we took throughout most of the nineteenth century and right up until 1914 when we reappraised our world view. We have vacillated between a balance of power and internationalist approach ever since then.
The problem is that we are now too small to stand alone as a wheeler dealer country any more. We can’t play with the big boys as we are not one, and with the emerging economies in the east and south America we will never be one again.
The economic and political situation now means that allegiance with Europe is our best bet both for international influence, whether you take an international cooperation or balance of power approach.
Choosing to cut our ties with Europe is a one hand game, based on an incorrect view of both our political influence and our economic strength. Europe would not be punitive with us. We would just lose the benefits of being part of the club. The rest of the world are not our natural friends. Indeed because of our imperial history they are, by instinct, quite the opposite.
You are advocating a realpolitik approach (which in itself is an ideological stance whether you perceive it that way or not). I believe that ditching Europe is not even an effective realpolitik approach as we would suffer adrift in an ocean of big sharks.
China btw is big enough to be a trading block all by itself and may shortly have an economy bigger than the whole of the EU. It trades with all the major European nations precisely because it has trade deals with them as EU members. I doubt it will want to make a special case for lil ol Britain, unless of course we can offer them a competitive advantage. And for that we would need Chinese wage levels. Great but a recipe for social disaster.
If we aint doing it for the welfare of our population, what are we doing it for?
@terry wrote:
@momentaryloss wrote:
True Terry the link between UKIP and discrimination is not based on the party’s public platform, but on the avowed views of some of those who associate with it.
UKIP would need to get rid of anyone with BNP or similar connections to escape that.
I don’t agree with the views of UKIP but it needn’t be associated with discrimination. It does however need to take action against what might become its very own lunatic fringe.
All parties have lunatic fringes (Harriet Harman and Chris Bryant spring to mind for Labour).
UKIP will always get smeared with wrong-doing – it’s the nature of politics and played a crucial role in yesterday’s US election result too.
Not sure that I agree with you about your two examples but I certainly agree that it is a problem for all parties. Just as Labour have to deal with people who are off message, so do UKIP.
As with the US elections, often the “off message” is heard more loudly by the population than the official party line.
@terry wrote:
@momentaryloss wrote:
The only potential route to success we have outside the EU is to compete on wages with the rest of Europe
Our trade with the EU leaves us with a yearly deficit of £60 billion.
Please explain the potential route to success of that stategy.On top of trade in goods however we have a surplus in services.
The fact that we currently have a deficit in goods cannot be taken as an indication that if we leave the EU we will have a surplus. Something else would have to radically change. There are tariffs and other barriers to UK exports in place in most of the world’s regional economic blocks and many individual states, either by design of because of the nature of their economies. They would not magically disappear if we left the EU.
On top of that we would have to pay tariffs to trade with the EU which would harm our exports and we would still suck in imports, if not from the EU, then from other countries.
In a world full of tariffs with no great sympathy for a newly “independent” UK, we could only compete by further driving down wages, as we have no other natural advantage for which other countries would pay a premium, except in services (which rely on the EU, although to a lesser extent).
Of course we could do better by having a more skilled workforce, increasing the productivity of labour by dealing in higher technologies and resuscitating our manufacturing base. All these things would improve our trading position within Europe.
Leaving the EU therefore would not on its own tackle our trade issues, and tackling them would negate the reason you quote for leaving the EU.
It therefore comes down to ideology and whether we believe the rest of the world wishes to give us some kind of special status if we are no longer tarred with the EU brush. That is possible. I just don’t think it is very likely.
True Terry the link between UKIP and discrimination is not based on the party’s public platform, but on the avowed views of some of those who associate with it.
UKIP would need to get rid of anyone with BNP or similar connections to escape that.
I don’t agree with the views of UKIP but it needn’t be associated with discrimination. It does however need to take action against what might become its very own lunatic fringe.
