Boards Index Chat rooms – the forum communities Chat forum three boards Tony Nicklinson loses High Court right-to-die case

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  • #18012

    I’m not sure if this topic is too serious for JC but hey ho.

    I believe that life is precious, every minute to be treasured and that no life should be taken needlessly…but then I look at people like Tony for whom life is so intolerable that they want out and we deny them that option. Any change in the law would need lots of safeguards in place but surely there is something wrong with the world when you would be taken court for cruelty if you allowed an animal to suffer but force a human being to live against their wishes.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19249680

    #507039

    This is so sad, I have a friend who is in the exact same position… He cannot assimilate information on a computer screen or the written word either so in some ways is even worse off as he cannot speak. so, apart from facial expression cannot communicate at all.

    He was a fit active man before he had a stroke almost three years ago. I was with his wife 24 hours after it happened when the doctors told her how severe his disability would be if he recovered….. they asked if she wanted them to continue with medication as his heart was racing…

    Of course she said yes as she hoped against hope they were wrong… so he survived…. but is it a survival he would have chosen for himself? Well … how do we know he has no way of telling us… except his tears which of course speak volumes… so sad.

    I know its a minefield but I truly believe there should be a change in the law…. it might not be usable in my friends case as how would we ever be sure what his wishes for his future are? He has no way of telling us…..but I can guess.

    #507040

    Very sad Mrs T, and it must be awful for your friends.

    Yes, there should be a change in the law. I would like to be able to make Living Will where I am in control of my own fate should such a thing happen to me, not a High Court judge.

    I am an independent person and I like my dignity – I would never want to be a burden to anyone and I would also want a quality of life.

    Others may feel differently and the law should be changed to give each adult the option to make such a decision for themselves. Maybe put safeguards in place such as being of sound mind when making the decision and having to renew it every year or so many years.

    #507041

    anc

    Yup, this is an unfortunate topic to think about, but, I agree with all three of you.

    Maybe there is a solution, in making your will, however that uncovers minefields too – difficult one this is.

    So sorry for your friend Mrs T and his wife too – x

    #507042

    i know that life is precious and every day for some is a chance to hold tighter to someone, that may be terminally ill. however there does come a time that for some that their quality of life is such that given the choice they would like to die.

    as a relative, we dont want them to go, we want them to stay with us as long as possible, is that selfish ? when you are asked , are you ready to let them go , what would be yr answer ?

    bad nite for me, and seeing this thread has made me think as ive had a really difficult conversation tonite where i have been asked for permission by a doctor to do something. it wont make the persons life better just prolong it, so i know that the person would not wish this to continue, but if i give my permission am i being selfish , in trying to hold them here for a wee bit longer but they will still be in pain and unhappy

    im not looking for replies, i just thought id show you both sides,

    no rite no wrong, goodnite and god bless everyone

    kj x

    #507043

    jeanie, that is really difficult.

    I think everybody here would understand whichever decison you made, like the decison of Mrs T’s friend.

    There is a movie called When Johnny Came Marchng Home (directed by Dalton Trumbo, ione of the victims of the anti-Red hysteria which gripped Hollywood at a certain time), but it’s very harrowing. It takes place entirely on a hospital bed, and through the eyes of a soldier, so physically and mentally disabled that he can’t communicate. Everybody treats him as a vergetable, and his voice as he reacts is heard only the audience.

    Very harrowing, the fear, despair and attempt to hang on to memories of love and laughing. If my memory serves me right, it ends with a nurse pointing to a tear rolling down his cheek, and doctors and relatives come rushing in, their faces showng a suddenr ealisation of what this vegetable may have been going through.

    #507044

    anc

    Having watched my grandmother die of Alzheimer’s years’ ago – I just bliddy new she would NOT have wanted to end up as an uncommunicative vegetable, completely reliant on relatives/nurses and doctors just to keep her clean and fed. She was in a coma for 5 years.

    So, in my opinion, yes I would turn off a machine, or, not treat pneumonia or any other life-threatening condition, without any hesitation at all. I wanted to keep her pride for her and I don’t think that is selfish. It just makes me sad that is how I remember her despite desperately trying not to. :cry:

    #507045

    i agree the law needs to be changed.i work within the care setting and see things most people will never see or want to see.We have DNR in place for some of our clients, it is no joy watching a 96 yr old frail lady with no quality of life being given cpr just to be kept alive for one extra hour. And if they where aware what was going to happen is that what they would want? They would not let animals get to that stage.I know it hurts when its a loved one, but they need to go with dignity and grace.

    #507046

    #507047

    In the old days the family doctor would have come around to visit regularly. They’d know you, they’d know your family. There’d be veiled discussions about what the patient and family wanted as the condition worsened, nothing said directly, but everyone understood what was being said. When the time came that it was clear that patient had had enough or, where the patient was in a vegetative state the family had had enough, then there seemed to be an exchange of thoughts unspoken, an agreement without words and the doctor would ask the family to leave him alone with the patient for a little while, maybe asking for a cup of tea. When the family returned to the room the patient would be “asleep” then died peacefully with their family around them. No one ever asked the doctor if he’d given the patient anything but they understood and were grateful.

    Then we entered the era of the blame culture, the litigation culture, and doctors no longer “helped” in this way. And of course we had Harold Shipman, Beverley Allitt and others, the medical profession is not immune to psychopaths, so now no doctor felt able to bring a peaceful end to those that desired it. At the same time medical science was advancing to the point where we believed that almost anything could be cured, and we expected the doctors to do everything possible to save our loved ones without actually considering the price. Technology also advanced to the point where we felt that people could still lead useful lives no matter what their physical difficulties…and they can, Stephen Hawking is living proof of that. However in our “progress”, our “advances”, we seem to have lost sight of the human element. Yes there are those that can accept their new circumstances, even embrace them, and go on to live a life that is full enough for them, and no one should deny them that right. However we shouldn’t expect everyone to be the same. Some become shells, alive but not living. Others are very much alive in that their brain functions as well as ever, but their new situation is intolerable to them and always will be. It is cruel to make those people suffer a life that they do not want because we have “progressed”. That is not progression, that is inhumane.

    We are of a generation that is used to being in control and having choices. The pill gave us the choice of when to start a family, how big a family we wanted. We choose our schools, we choose our careers…no more becoming a carpenter because your father was a carpenter and his before him. We no longer marry for life no matter how good or bad the marriage, if we’re not happy we have a choice..and so on. Throughout our lives we have had choices put in our hands. We are a generation that has had choices in almost every aspects of our lives, it stands to reason now that we want to choose when and how we die. It would be humane to allow those who are ill or in intolerable pain to make that choice (with the appropriate safeguards of course); it is inhumane to deny that choice.

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