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Posts
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You say there’s no alternative but to report non-violent protests if the violence stops but the news companies can just ignore those type of protests. Non violent protests get ignored all the time even in this country. Occasionally you get news reports about organisations such as Seeds of Peace but mostly the activities of the non-violent and the peacemakers get less news coverage than the activities of the Israeli war machine and the other men of violence.
You also said that Palestinians could refuse to work for Israeli firms as a protest but you’re looking at the issue from an English perspective. The Palestinian economy is not in good health and there is a lot of unemployment. People need to feed their families and if the only option they have is to work for an Israeli firm then they will do it.
I’m not advocating violence by the palestinians as a viable strategy or a way to end the conflict, but they do have the right to self-defence and the violence is inevitable in the absence of any peace process or any real hope of better things to come in the future. No amount of peaceful protests will replace the effect that meaningful negotiations will have.
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
You say there’s no alternative but to report non-violent protests if the violence stops but the news companies can just ignore those type of protests. Non violent protests get ignored all the time even in this country. Occasionally you get news reports about organisations such as Seeds of Peace but mostly the activities of the non-violent and the peacemakers get less news coverage than the activities of the Israeli war machine and the other men of violence.
I’m saying it has to be a pan-Palestinian campaign. To take your example, Rachel Corrie’s death was reported, amongst many others, by CNN, FOX, The New York Times and The Washington Post. Imagine the impact that story combining with many more would have made on American popular opinion in the absence of any obscuring Palestinian violence whatsoever.
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
You also said that Palestinians could refuse to work for Israeli firms as a protest but you’re looking at the issue from an English perspective. The Palestinian economy is not in good health and there is a lot of unemployment. People need to feed their families and if the only option they have is to work for an Israeli firm then they will do it.
I absolutely, categorically do not advance this as an easy option. I firmly believe it to be the most courageous option open to the Palestinians, involving probably the greatest sacrifice, but still their best chance of obtaining justice.
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
I’m not advocating violence by the palestinians as a viable strategy or a way to end the conflict, but they do have the right to self-defence and the violence is inevitable in the absence of any peace process or any real hope of better things to come in the future. No amount of peaceful protests will replace the effect that meaningful negotiations will have.
I don’t believe violence is inevitable. I believe the Palestinians have a choice, with clear lessons from history, on the futility and failure of their current strategy and an example of a different approach to achieving their aims. Otherwise, negotiations are just putting the cart before the horse. Any international ruling of any force would have to come through the P5. Considering Uncle Sam’s veto, nothing would happen under current circumstances and there would be no pressure on Israel to act with a sense of fairness. It’s up to the Palestinians to change those circumstances and that means garnering support and sympathy in the United States.
My apologies to you Mr B for not responding to your earlier posts. However may I comment of some of the things you have been telling us.
Your basic claim is that Hamas is not a terrorist organisation but is in fact fighting for the freedom of the Palestinians from Israeli oppression etc etc.
Perhaps a few facts might shed some light on your one-sided view. Hamas (which is incidentally an acronym of ‘Harakat al-Muqawamah al-Islamiyyah’) is a Palestiniasn anti-occupation organisation and is closely related to the Muslim Brotherhood. It preaches and engages in violence and terror in order to destroy the state of Israel and replace it with an Islamic state. Its virulent hatred of Jews and Judaism is deeply rooted in the anti-Semitic writings of Muslim Brotherhood theologians.
Why do I reprise this stuff?? Well you constantly tell us that the only way forward is by negotiation hopefully leading to some sort of peaceful settelment or compromise. I say that this simply isn’t possible …. and this is why.
In August 1988 Hamas issued its Covenant in which it laid down its ideological principles and goals. It charges the Jews with an international conspiracy to gain control of the world and states that in its (Hamas’s) view the Jewish people have no connection to the land of Israel.
The Hamas covenant proclaims: “The land of Palestine is an Islamic trust……. it is forbidden to anyone to yield or concede any part of it. Israel will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it.”
Whilst I would concede that Yasser Arafat’s organisation – Fatah, and the Palestinian Authority may well be acting in what they see as the Palestinian people’s best interests, Hamas is acting solely out of Islamic Jihad motives. They want a pure Islamic state and nothing less. For them there can be no compromise to this fundamentasl goal.
They are prepared to pursue any violent course of action to achieve the ultimate total destruction of the state of Israel. You might agree that there isn’t much room for negotiation or compromise there huh?
Why are they accused of being a terrorist organisation by the rest of the world? Well they spend most of their time attacking purely civilian targets. Between 1st December 2000 and 28th August 2005 they have sent 32 suicide bombing missions into Israel directed specifically at civilian targets such as pubs; restuarants; markets; buses; libraries; shopping malls; hotels and so on. In these attacks they have killed some 300 civilians including women, children and babies and injured over 2,000.
Additionally they have fired off hundreds of Quassam rockets from Gaza into Israel which kill and maim civilians in their homes and schools. Oh and before you say that this was nothing to do with Hamas Mr B, you should know that they take great delight in claiming responsibility for them all – indeed they seem proud of it.
You have told us that this is all the result of the Palestinians feeling ”oppressed” and this bloodshed is simply a form of resistance. Well let me tell you that only some 68% of the suicide bombers are actually Palestinian. The rest come from other Islamic supporting countries such as Syria, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. They even had some from the UK ffs!!!
Did you know that shortly before his downfall Saddam Hussein distributed $260,000 to the families of Palestinians killed in the previous 29 months of fighting with Israel – including $25,000 to the family of a Hamas suicide bomber??? Did you know that even now Iraq gives $10,000 to each family whose son (or in one case daughter) is killed in a suicide bombing??? This is a small fortune in Gaza and adds to the motivation of these guys to kill themselves.
Sorry Mr B but al this stuff about an oppressed people standing up to an aggressor simply won’t do. Israel is fighting a war against Islamic terrorism pure and simple. They fight against an enemy that is well supported by all the major Arab countries including Iran ($20 – £30 million), Saudi Arabia ($12 – $14 million) and many Muslim organisations throughout the Gulf states, and they have an arms, explosives and training budget estimated at over $70 million per annum.
When did I ever say that Hamas was not involved in terrorism? All I said was that attacks on Israeli military targets are not acts of terrorism because they are combatants. If attacks on soldiers in a conflict equates to terrorism then all war is terrorism.
You say Hamas could never compromise but they said the same thing about Arafat and the PLO. We have even seen the Palestinian PM offer a recognition of the 1967 borders which would be a de facto recognition of Israel. That sounds like the possibility of compromise to me.
You seem to be hell-bent on pointing out all the Israeli casualties but you don’t seem to care that 3 or 4 times as many Palestinians have been killed including women and children. Explain to me how shooting a 13 yr. old girl 20 times can ever be justified.
You also dismiss the idea of persecution fuelling the violence when this is the explanation given by the militants themselves by the general palestinian population, by the rest of the islamic world and by experts on the mideast. I’ve also given you examples of cases that corroborate this fact including the case of Wafa Idris, a paramedic whose trauma and injury caused by the Israeli military flipped her out and turned her into a suicide bomber. You can’t deny the facts in front of your face.
That story about Saddam is just disinformation by the Israeli government that a lot of people swallowed hook line and sinker. It’s true that Saddam gave money to the families of some suicide bombers but what you and the Israelis fail to mention is that he was giving money to the families of any palestinian killed in the conflict. He was giving money to the families of innocent civilians too. It was a public relations exercise just like the mass weddings he held. The suicide bombers aren’t motivated by money, it’s nonsense to assume that they are. Just like the propaganda that parents strap bombs to their children. It’s disinformation and the fact that so many people believe it proves my point about Palestinians not being able to influence the American public. The pro-Israel lobby are so effective at getting their point of view across that a lot of people are misled about the real facts on the ground, especially people in the USA.
This idea that Israel is simply fighting a war against terrorism is a load of crap too. Building settlements has nothing to do with fighting terrorism. When the IRA started their armed campaign did we start building settlements in the Irish Republic? How many times did we carry out airstrikes on Ireland? How many incursions did we launch into Ireland? Remind me which strategy has had more success, the Israeli way or the British way? Didn’t the IRA say they wouldn’t lay down their arms until their was a united ireland? Seems like negotitations do work then.
You really must be having a laugh if you don’t believe there is any persecution or murder going on by Israel in the occupied territories. Read human rights reports by any NGO. Even the Swiss government has criticized Israel for its human rights abuses and you can’t get much more impartial or neutral than switzerland.
@Mr B wrote:
When did I ever say that Hamas was not involved in terrorism? All I said was that attacks on Israeli military targets are not acts of terrorism because they are combatants. If attacks on soldiers in a conflict equates to terrorism then all war is terrorism.
Actually I cannot find a quote from you where you have admitted that Hamas IS involved in terrorism. Your constant stance seems to be that Hamas does all the dreadful things it does because they are ‘’oppressed’’ or as an act of ‘’resistance’’ and so on. You claim that they primarily attack “Israeli military targets” whereas in my previous post I listed all the purely civilian targets that they constantly attack. Yes they have attacked border posts as well, but some 97% of all their attacks are against women and children.
By any reasonable definition of terrorism (including your own as above) these attacks, being attacks on non-combatants therefore constitute terrorism. That Hamas IS a terrorist organization is not just my view, but is the view of the vast majority of Western governments.
@Mr B wrote:
You say Hamas could never compromise but they said the same thing about Arafat and the PLO. We have even seen the Palestinian PM offer recognition of the 1967 borders which would be a de facto recognition of Israel. That sounds like the possibility of compromise to me.
The major difference between Hamas on the one hand and Arafat’s Fatah organization / PLO and Palestinian Authority on the other is this: Hamas has an absolutely unbreakable covenant, established back in 1988, which is that that they are dedicated to and utterly committed to the total eradication of the Jewish state. Their total focus is on the obliteration of Judaism and the creation of a pure Islamic state. No compromise, no watering down of this aim, no give and take, no sharing, no nothing. This is what they want, this is what they demand, this is what they are really fighting for, and they won’t stop until they either get it or they are all killed in their (as they see it) holy war.
Yes of course I realise that the now electorally defeated Palestinian Fatah / PLO / PA / organizations – fraqgmented though they are – were and possibly still are prepared to accept the existence of Israel and compromise with them, so that they can somehow agree to live side by side. Indeed talks on that very subject had reached an advanced stage and were nearing success a couple of weeks ago.
But Hamas cannot and will not accept this situation and they utterly refuse to make this fundamental concession – hence my comment that the recent cross border attack was deliberately planned and conceived to derail the ‘peace’ talks that were then taking place.
Hamas certainly succeeded in derailing these talks and they now have stepped back to open confrontation with Israel – which is exactly and precisely what Hamas wanted all along. No surrender, no compromise, and an Islamic state overthrowing Judaism, completely in line with their Covenant .
@Mr B wrote:
That story about Saddam is just disinformation by the Israeli government that a lot of people swallowed hook line and sinker.
In fact what you say is inaccurate. The story came from the Al-Jazeera website – which is about as anti-Israeli as you can get – amongst others and was widely reported at the time.
On Wednesday 12th March 2003 Saddam Hussein distributed $260,000 to 26 families of Palestinians killed in fighting with Israel including $10,000 cheques to families of suicide bombers. In a packed banqueting hall in one of his palaces in Baghdad, the families came forward one by one to receive their $10,000 dollar payments under a large banner which said “The Arab Baath Party Welcomes the Families of the Martyrs for the distribution of Blessings of Saddam Hussein”.
However, leaving aside the financial support that Hamas receives for its acts of terrorism from other terrorist supporting states and organisations:
I guess my main concern is that it seems to me that Hamas is hell bent on the overthrow of the STATE of Israel. Yes they use the grievances of the Palestinian population as their apparent justification, but at the end of the day they simply want to eradicate the state itself. I really cannot see how you can justify the launching of literally hundreds of Quassam rockets against a civilian population in another country, and the indiscriminate and wanton killing that this involves – unless of course you also support the aims and objectives of the terrorists that do this.
The Hamas terrorists aren’t forced to kill women and children, they choose to do so. They aren’t forced to dispatch suicide bombers against civilian targets; they make that choice themselves, carefully plan it, and execute it with a dreadfully cold blooded lack of interest or care for the consequences.
All they need do is to stop murdering people and there would be no need for Israel to retaliate and take preventative measures to stop them.
You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. You’re making things up to suit your argument and ignoring everything else that doesn’t suit your argument. Quote the post where I said Hamas was not involved in terrorism and the post where I supposedly said they primarily target military targets. You can’t because I never said those things. Anyway, if you define terrorism as attacks on non-combatants then clearly Israel is guilty of terrorism too. You could say that the scale of Israel’s terrorism is much larger than Hamas’.
The idea that Hamas could never compromise is nonsense considering that the PM has already suggested a willingness to compromise by offering a truce if the occupation ends and by offering an acceptance of the 1967 borders. How can you say that this is not a compromise?
As I already said, the story about Saddam is disinformation because he was giving money to the families of “martyrs”. Over there, a martyr is considered to be anyone killed by the Israelis or killed while attacking Israelis. Even British civilians have been called “martyrs” after being shot and killed by Israelis. Some people take liberties with the translation from Arabic to English and translate the arabic for martyr as “suicide bomber” which is not an accurate translation because even a 3 yr. old baby can be called a “martyr”. So the money was not just going to the families of suicide bombers, the majority of donations were most likely going to the families of non-combatants since more civilians die than suicide bombers.
I do not condone attacks on either the arab or Israeli civilian populations. They are violations of the 4th Geneva convention and therefore unacceptable. However, do YOU condemn the killing of palestinian civilians by the Israeli military and all other human rights abuses? You seem to be avoiding this question. You say Hamas’ objective is the destruction of the state of Israel but one could equally argue that Israel’s objective is the destruction of the palestinian government and the annexation of all of the West Bank. So what’s the difference? At the end of the day it is the Israelis who are imposing themselves on the Palestinians not vice-versa.
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. You’re making things up to suit your argument and ignoring everything else that doesn’t suit your argument. Quote the post where I said Hamas was not involved in terrorism and the post where I supposedly said they primarily target military targets. You can’t because I never said those things. Anyway, if you define terrorism as attacks on non-combatants then clearly Israel is guilty of terrorism too. You could say that the scale of Israel’s terrorism is much larger than Hamas’.
OK so we both agree then that Hamas is ”involved in terrorism” – yes??? I guess that the difference between us is one of degree. I believe that they are a terrorist organisation first and foremost whereas you believe that this isn’t so and that they are driven to terrorist acts because of what they see as ”oppression” etc etc.
@Mr B wrote:
The idea that Hamas could never compromise is nonsense considering that the PM has already suggested a willingness to compromise by offering a truce if the occupation ends and by offering an acceptance of the 1967 borders. How can you say that this is not a compromise?
Well Mr B I suspect that the ‘compromise’ that you refer to is the one offered by Mahmoud Abbas as Palestinian Authority President. However, Hamas won 74 seats out of the 132 seat legislature in the January 2006 elections making THEM the de facto Palestinian Authority government.
Mahmoud Abbas (currently) leads the Fatah organisation and yes, he is ready and willing to cut a deal with the Israelis – or at least he was until the latest bout of confrontations orchestrated by Hamas.
However, and by contrast, Hamas continues to maintain its refusal to recognise Israel’s right to exist and continues to fully support, maintain and uphold the ‘Hamas Charter’. Indeed the leader of Hamas, Mahmoud Zahar (from his base in Damascus) on Palestinian TV stated “We do not recognise the Israel enemy or his right to be our neighbour, nor to stay on the land, nor his ownership of any inch of land. We are interested only in restoring our full rights to return all the peoples of Palestine to the land of Palestine. Our principles are clear: Palestine is a land of Waqf (Islamic trust) which cannot be given up.”
So although the Palestinian President (Fatah) is prepared to negotiate and find some sort of compromise, sadly for all concerned Hamas is simply NOT prepared to negotiate.They will NOT accept the 1967 borders or any other borders for that matter. for them it is really simple…. Israel has NO right to exist and should be wiped off the face of the earth.
@Mr B wrote:
As I already said, the story about Saddam is disinformation because he was giving money to the families of “martyrs”. Over there, a martyr is considered to be anyone killed by the Israelis or killed while attacking Israelis. Even British civilians have been called “martyrs” after being shot and killed by Israelis. Some people take liberties with the translation from Arabic to English and translate the arabic for martyr as “suicide bomber” which is not an accurate translation because even a 3 yr. old baby can be called a “martyr”. So the money was not just going to the families of suicide bombers, the majority of donations were most likely going to the families of non-combatants since more civilians die than suicide bombers.
To be completely accurate Mr B all of the 26 families got $10,000 each (hence $260,000) and yes they were all ”martyrs” but not all of them were suicide bombers. Yes some of the families had suffered their loss as a result of a member being killed in the fighting and equally some of them were suicide bomber’s families. Maybe I hadn’t spelled out this point clearly enough, if so I apologise.
However, I think that we are squabbling over semantics here. The underlying point is that Saddam Hussein did support terrorism (including suicide bombers) and to that extent the story was true and was not ”disinformation”. However, given his current demise, pursuing this point takes us no further. Maybe we should let it drop and move on.
@Mr B wrote:
I do not condone attacks on either the arab or Israeli civilian populations. They are violations of the 4th Geneva convention and therefore unacceptable. However, do YOU condemn the killing of palestinian civilians by the Israeli military and all other human rights abuses? You seem to be avoiding this question. You say Hamas’ objective is the destruction of the state of Israel but one could equally argue that Israel’s objective is the destruction of the palestinian government and the annexation of all of the West Bank. So what’s the difference? At the end of the day it is the Israelis who are imposing themselves on the Palestinians not vice-versa.
Well I guess we have another difference in perception here Mr B. Contrary to your belief, I do not condone terrorist murder whether it is of a civilian or indeed a soldier.Hopefully that at least answers that particular question.
I see the situation as a country (Israel) defending itself from attacks made upon it by a terrorist organisation (Hamas). Sometimes they act in retaliation and sometimes they act in a pre-emptive way to eliminate assorted rocket firers, terrorist leaders, terrorist training bases, suicide bombers and so on. You will I hope note that I keep on referring to Hamas in this context (which is the subject of the topic after all) and NOT to the Palestinians in general.
I think that if it was left to the ”Palestinian people” whatever they actually are, then it may be possible to sort something out. Problem is that Hamas specifically do not want this as it totally conflicts with their goals. Unfortunately right now, Hamas IS and represents the ”Palestinian people” as their elected government. And so it goes on.
Once again you’re ignoring the facts. Yes the military wing of hamas has been involved in many acts of terrorism but can you say the same thing about the social wing of Hamas? So to call it a purely terrorist organisation is far too simplistic. You also say the actions of the IDF are completely unconnected to violence from the Palestinian side. Take a look at saturday’s events when a residential property was hit by a shell or a missile from the IDF killing 3 civilians (including a woman and a 6 year old child) and wounding several others. Do you honestly believe that things like that have no effect at all on the level of hostility towards Israel and the willingness to carry out acts of violence? No person in their right mind could believe that.
As for the impossibility of Hamas making any compromises, this is a quote from prime minister Haniyeh taken from an Israeli website, “If Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, peace will prevail and we will implement a ceasefire for many years,” he told Haaretz. “Our government is prepared to maintain a long-term cease-fire with Israel.” Clearly this contradicts your claim that Hamas would never accept the 1967 borders. The willingness to compromise by Hamas was even reported in the Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1143498851330&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)
I still notice that you can’t bring yourself to say that the killing of palestinian civilians and other abuses are wrong. How do you define “a terrorist murder of a soldier”? If there’s a gun battle between the IDF and Palestinian gunmen how can it possibly be murder? They are combatants so it can’t be murder. A suicide bomber attacking a military target in a conflict is no different to a japanese kamikaze pilot it does not violate any of the rules of war.
As for your final point, the proof that it is utter nonsense is that Israel had countless opportunities to make peace with Fatah governments led by Arafat and Abbas and not once did they ever offer to end the occupation of Palestinian territory. Even Colin Powell didn’t view the deal offered by Ehud Barak as a viable proposition.
I guess your opinion of the cowboys/pioneers in the USA is that they were defending themselves from acts of terror against Indian terrorists. Was there are vast amount of difference between what the native americans did against invaders who were stealing their territory and what palestinian militants are doing? I think not.
When will Mr Big realise that these people are terrorists They are not normal people , they are not fighting for anything They are the brainwashers or the brainwashed They have no intentions of seeking a peaceful solution
You defend the palestinians as if they have some God given right to that land- which they haven’t@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
Once again you’re ignoring the facts. Yes the military wing of Hamas has been involved in many acts of terrorism but can you say the same thing about the social wing of Hamas? So to call it a purely terrorist organisation is far too simplistic.
In fact Mr B that is a very fair point and I was being too simplistic. Hamas is pretty fragmented as an organisation (as I suspect you already knew) and has a number ”wings”. Hamas is both a terrorist organisation, and a mass social, political and religious movement. Yes they do a lot of good social work and provide welfare services, only for their Palestinian supporters – but not of course for the Palestinian Fatah supporters. Still I guess you can’t have everything can you? However, politically and ideologically they are directed and controlled by their military wing which is under the direction of Khaled Meshaal – who is based in Damascus, Syria.
Whilst they are mainly popular for their paramilitary activities, they rode to victory in the recent elections at the expense of their corrupt rivals, largely on the back of their reputation for probity. Yasser Arafat and his henchmen have long since been discredited as thieves who cared little for their people and were only interested in lining their own pockets.
@Mr B wrote:
As for the impossibility of Hamas making any compromises, this is a quote from prime minister Haniyeh taken from an Israeli website, “If Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, peace will prevail and we will implement a ceasefire for many years,” he told Haaretz. “Our government is prepared to maintain a long-term cease-fire with Israel.” Clearly this contradicts your claim that Hamas would never accept the 1967 borders. The willingness to compromise by Hamas was even reported in the Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1143498851330&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)
In point of fact this quote of yours is only a partial quote. It originated from Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi who on 26th January 2004 did say the words quoted but went on to say “…. it is difficult to liberate all of our land at this stage, so we accept a phased liberation. The truce could last for 10 years but not more than 10 years” (Source: Al Jazeera).
In other words they did NOT accept the so-called 1967 border but merely looked upon a truce as a stepping stone towards achieving their ultimate goal. In case you have conveniently forgotten Mr B, their goal is the TOTAL eradication of Israel/Judaism and the formation of an Islamic state in its place.
Indeed Khaled Meshaal, currently hiding in his headquarters in Damascus and enjoying the protection of the Syrians, has reaffirmed that Hamas remained dedicated to the obliteration of Israel. At a meeting in Cairo last week Meshaal’s right-hand man Mohammed Nazal accused Hamas politicians inside the Palestinian territories of being “seduced by the seats of power and therefore incapable of responding to Israeli crimes.”
So Mr B, the bottom line is that Hamas will stop at nothing to continue to kill Israelis any way they can – in true terrorist style. Any attempt at a settlement will be bitterly resisted by them as it goes utterly against their core belief to concede that Israel has a right to exist.
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