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Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:
“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”
As for the when in Rome idea, this is a protestant country so should we stop Catholics carrying out their religious beliefs? Should we ban druids from dressing up in robes and gathering at Stonehenge? It’s bad enough that this country has had centuries of sectarian hatred between Protestants and Catholics so do we really need to start persecuting muslims now? Anyway, when have the British ever complied with this “when in Rome” idea? The British empire was all about forcing people to adopt British customs and British religious beliefs rather than integrating. Even now when people go off to mainland Spain or the Balearics or Aegean they don’t behave as the locals do.
The way I see it, these women wear the full veil as an expression of their religious belief and nobody should tell them that they are not allowed to do it unless out of absolute necessity. After all, what harm does it do to anybody. I don’t like the way Goths and rockers dress but they’ve got the right to wear whatever they want.
No law is being broken by a person wearing a full veil when travelling on a bus, all that matters is the validity of the ticket. So the woman probably has the right to refuse to remove her veil. Unless there is a clear policy with the sale of the travelcard that a person has to remove anything obscuring their face when asked by a driver then, from a legal standpoint, the driver can’t force anybody to do so. By buying a ticket the bus company is agreeing to provide a specific service to the passenger for the price of that ticket. If the driver then charges the passenger for a journey already paid for, the bus company has breached the agreement. Well that’s my interpretation of it. I’m not a ticket inspector so don’t quote me.
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
As for the bus-pass issue I don’t think it’s important unless you’re getting loads of people wearing full veils. If you only get one person like that then you might as well not trouble yourself over it. I would just let them on
No law is being broken by a person wearing a full veil when travelling on a bus, all that matters is the validity of the ticket.
What about if the woman is not the one who paid for the ticket? The bus driver wont know unless the veil is removed.
Unless it expressly says in the terms and conditions of the travelcard that a person has to remove a hat or sunglasses or any other item that might obscure a face, then the woman is entirely within her rights to refuse to remove her veil. If her photo is in the photocard and her ticket is valid then she is travelling legally and complying by the terms of her ticket as far as I’m aware. You’d have to ask a ticket inspector if you want a definitive answer since I’m just guessing what the legal situation is.
@drivel wrote:
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
It’s an issue of religious freedom. This country has had a long history of religious intolerance, so the last thing we need is the state telling people what aspects of their religion they should be able to carry out.
As for the bus-pass issue I don’t think it’s important unless you’re getting loads of people wearing full veils. If you only get one person like that then you might as well not trouble yourself over it. I would just let them on rather than being pedantic. The only time when you should insist about seeing their face should be when you’re checking their passport or something important like that.
it’s not an issue of religious freedom at all – it’s as Ruby pointed out – when in Rome !!
What are they hiding behind their veils ???
If a drive has to verify a us pass by seeing the face then so he must – there’s no excuse – he should have kicked her off the bus
Anyone who want to use veils etc as an excuse to not abide by the laws of this country , then they should pop over to a country where they can wear them to their life’s content – and bloody stop over there !! If her face is showing on the photograph then I fail to see how it became an issue for her not to show the bus driver ?? She’s already shown it several times, so where is the issue in showing it again :?: :?: It all boils down to pure ignorance on her part and the fact that she feels she is above the law. No matter how you look at it MrB, the bus driver acted correctly, if it were a young lower class Chav he asked to remove his cap, he would have also been well within his rights to refuse his pass and expect him to pay. Yet the Chav wouldn’t get such a response from the Bus Company would he ???
Are you sure thier all women under there?
They could be just covering up a tranny problem, or worst.
well most muslims have brown eyes. u dont see many with blue grey or green. so if all the busdriver can see is a pair of brown eyes..how the fook is he sposed to know what the rest of the face is like. he has been told by his superiors to check faces against bus passes. so cos she thinks shes above the law.and its her religion…….how come she posed for a buss pass in the first place?its nowt to do with religion.its sheer blo/ody mindedness!.if a white woman got on wearing a full face mask….only eyes showing.she would ave bin treated same. maybe the bus company should make thier rules more flexible…..an tell thier drivers…..unless they are dressed as muslims……they must show passes. :roll:
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
It’s an issue of religious freedom. This country has had a long history of religious intolerance, so the last thing we need is the state telling people what aspects of their religion they should be able to carry out.
As for the bus-pass issue I don’t think it’s important unless you’re getting loads of people wearing full veils. If you only get one person like that then you might as well not trouble yourself over it. I would just let them on rather than being pedantic. The only time when you should insist about seeing their face should be when you’re checking their passport or something important like that.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006460721,00.html
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
I’m just guessing what the legal situation is.
You said it was ok if one person got away without paying, even if all the other passengers had to pay, and just because it is a muslim.
If we were talking about a man with a balaclava, you would be saying he must take it off.
@sweetasbaileez wrote:
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
Unless it expressly says in the terms and conditions of the travelcard that a person has to remove a hat or sunglasses or any other item that might obscure a face, then the woman is entirely within her rights to refuse to remove her veil. If her photo is in the photocard and her ticket is valid then she is travelling legally and complying by the terms of her ticket as far as I’m aware. You’d have to ask a ticket inspector if you want a definitive answer since I’m just guessing what the legal situation is.
But if her face is not visible, how is the bus driver to know if its a valid photo or not ??? :roll: ](*,) If her face is showing on the photograph then I fail to see how it became an issue for her not to show the bus driver ?? She’s already shown it several times, so where is the issue in showing it again :?: :?: It all boils down to pure ignorance on her part and the fact that she feels she is above the law. No matter how you look at it MrB, the bus driver acted correctly, if it were a young lower class Chav he asked to remove his cap, he would have also been well within his rights to refuse his pass and expect him to pay. Yet the Chav wouldn’t get such a response from the Bus Company would he ???
How can you quote me and yet completely overlook what I’ve said? The way I see it, she probably has the right to refuse to remove her veil unless it says in the terms and conditions of sale that a person has to remove any facial obstruction when asked to by the driver. As I already said, if she has a photocard and a valid ticket then she is not breaking any law so how can she be acting above the law. There’s no law that says you have to remove your veil when travelling on a bus.
The bus driver was trying to do his job properly but he became pedantic. He could have just let her go and then spoke to the bus company about changing their policy. That would have been the right approach. You say the driver was within his rights to refuse her pass but was he? Is he allowed to turn down a valid ticket if he has doubts about the identity of the bearer or does he have to be sure that the bearer and the person in the photo are not the same?
The point I’m trying to make is that if there’s nothing in the terms and conditions that states that a person has to remove a veil or cap or anything like that then surely a person has the right to refuse to remove an item and still be allowed to travel. A person refused travel because they refused to remove an item could probably take legal action against the bus company.
With a passport it’s a different matter because there are serious security and safety issues attached to international travel. Therefore, the people checking passports have a duty of care towards the staff and other passengers (among others) to verify the identity of all travellers.
On reflection, maybe the driver has the right to turn down the pass and the woman has the right not to remove her veil. That being said, because the ticket was valid and there was nothing saying that she had to remove her veil, the woman probably has grounds to sue for the breach of the agreement.
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