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Seems that Richmond elected someone who can’t deal with light-hearted criticism.
I can fully understand why some things are now considered to cause offence and outlawed etc ( Golliwogs for example) as they do cause offence and we can see both sides of viewpoints.
Golliwogs are still sold in shops, I saw one a few months ago. I was confused by it, and I don’t really understand who would want to buy one.
Islam for example is supposed to mean ‘peace’; but it can be hard to get a single example of this but many many example of opposite .
No, it means submission. Even most Islamic sources are open about this, anyone who says otherwise either doesn’t know what they are talking about, or are lying to you.
The rest of your post I largely agree with so I haven’t quoted it.
Get off your high horse Drac ……singling out small sentences that aren’t attached to the longer explanation or meaning helping you twist your replies…..doesn’t wash with me
Please tell me what I have twisted, and what the original meaning was. Your full replies are visible on the thread for everyone to see.
why don’t you tell us your ethnic background instead of skirting round the issue…..I write from experience and my feelings on topics are because of my background.
Why is my ethnicity any of your concern?
You are saying that people should be trusted based on their race, you do realise that right?
Where do you base this example ? Again picking up examples randomly without any merit or evidence is not thinking rationally or fairly.
I can find a report of this kind of thing happening if you want to discuss a specific case.
see now people can see context – you simply copy and paste from alt-right sites which only give you one side of the story full of half truths to serve their own agendas id imagine.
… Except that I didn’t do that, I took the quotes from an Islamic source as I said.
I notice you subtly left out the 40 meanings of jihad from your analysis but hey ho
What did you want me to say about it? It’s still in conflict with western values, regardless if it’s a war fought with guns, money or words.
I notice you subtly left out why the original question is not explained: where have muslims failed to intergrate in to the community and why just Muslims ?
You are being dishonest, again. I did reply to that, you mentioned part of my reply about hindus in your post
.The UK is home to the 3rd largest Sikh and he 10th largest Hindu populations in the world. They don’t usually come into conflict with western culture and values as much as muslims. This is partially because heir religions don’t contain the same type of politcal ideology as Islam does. And partially because of the historical links between Britain and India, and the exchanges of ideas that resulted from this.
There of course still some conflicts. Gay people are stigmatised in India but that is changing, and I have never heard of British hindus trying to push those views here.
To expand on the point I was making, how many terrorist attacks have hindus, sikhs or buddists commited in western countries in the last decade? How about honour killings, or sex trafficing gangs?
A very large majority of these crimes in western countries are commited by muslims, not by other faiths. This is why they must integrate more.
Please don’t for pity’s sake And if we leave we’ll be fine we were fine before we’ll be fine again.. the EU will fall apart anyway won’t be there to rejoin
The world isn’t the same as when we joined, and we had to cut ties with the commonwealth to join it. It’s not quite that simple.
That was not the wish fo the majority fo the elctorate, but of 36% of the electorate. 64% of the electorate did not vote to leave the EU. It was a small majority of those who voted.
I see this argument alot, and it’s a very bad one. If the people who didn’t vote wanted to stay in the EU, they would have voted to remain.
And I don’t really see why you see this as a loss for the Conservative party, they were not running in this election. They might have kept the seat if they did, they might still have lost it. You don’t know, and neither does anyone else.
If a generaly election was called now, I would still predict a near complete wipe out for both the Lib Dems and for Labour, maybe even for SNP to lose some seats to the Tories in Scotland.
Corbyn seems to be finally getting his act together too with regard to Article 50. Good. A soft brexit is in with a chance, though not certain. I’m keepiong my fingers crossed again.
Corbyn will never get anywhere near power, nobody takes him seriously as an oposition figure outside of the far left branch of labour members.
Democracy is allowing people to change their mind when circumstances change. It didn’t stop on 24 June, after the referendum, as some seem to think.
The last referendum on ‘EU’ membership was in 1975, you can have a referendum on rejoining in 2057
.I’m addressing the relevant arguments in Ms K’s post, drac, and trying to make it less personal. As you know, I don’t hold any personal animus against you.
My message was addressed to both of you, where your arguments are similar. Rather than writing the same reply to both of you.
There are liberals within islam who deny women’s inferiority
As we were talking about language earlier, the word Islam means ‘submission (to God)’. Do you think that submission and the disregard for individual liberties (western values), is possible for a liberal person? And is someone who denys fudemental aspects of their own holy book actually a member of that religion still?
If you want to see some unacceptable practices, look at Moses in the Book of Numbers as well a the Koran. After a mass slaughter of Israel’s enemies, he shouts to an increasingly excited crowd of victors that they should kill all males and all ‘soiled’ women, and as for the virgin girls – do with them as you will
The old testiment contains a lot of israelite supremacy, that is a large part of the Quran’s justifcation for why Jewish people are bad. Regarding Moses, he is killed by God in the Quran for not complying with God’s wishes.
I don’t see how my own post shows that sharia law can’t fit into western law, as long as it subordinates itself to that law as a penal code, and as long as it represses some parts of its law to Western laws.
Sharia law can’t exist with the protections offered by our legal system. I will reuse the example that I used in reply to MalboroMan, a muslims store owner may choose to refuse custom to another muslim because of a Sharia court ruling. This would be an illegal form of discrimination under British law.
Incorrect – Sharia law does come from the Quran and from fatwas (which may be based on hadiths).
Yes, I misspoke there. There are some elements of Sharia that are taken from the Quran, but a lot of it doesn’t.
Above all there is no such thing as a sharia court. It is subordinated to the law of the land (assume UK). It has no legal bearing on the decision. People go to the sharia councils for advice and elder ruling which is considered ‘halal’ – a form of mediation. If there is any disagreement then the party may go to the UK courts for another verdict which is legally binding. The council arbitrates on varieity of matters ranging from financial, commercial matters or (i believe the majority of cases) divorce.
You can call it a council with elders if you want, but it still functions very much like a court with judges. The verdicts that are passed are not legally binding, but they are still enforced by some elements of the muslim population. Someone who has a ruling against them may not be invited to family events, or refused service in a muslim owned store. None of these things are illegal under British law, but they are still wrong.
Reading a book does not mean you understand it.
Do the muslims i’ve discussed the Quran with, also not understand it then?
Picking out single sentenances from obvious alt-right/heavily biased sites will give a meaning.
Ahh yes, muslim reformers who write resources explaining the problems with Islam to other muslims are part of a white nationalist movement, I should have known better.
Even if I did get the quotes from an alt-right source, that doesn’t mean they aren’t in the Quran anymore suddenly
Going back to the original posters statement – i am still confused where muslims have failed to intergrate and why muslims were pointed out rather than other religions from buddists, to hindus to zen
The UK is home to the 3rd largest Sikh and he 10th largest Hindu populations in the world. They don’t usually come into conflict with western culture and values as much as muslims. This is partially because heir religions don’t contain the same type of politcal ideology as Islam does. And partially because of the historical links between Britain and India, and the exchanges of ideas that resulted from this.
There of course still some conflicts. Gay people are stigmatised in India but that is changing, and I have never heard of British hindus trying to push those views here.
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Ms, K, two excellent posts there, apart from the last phrase of your second post.
Including the parts where she makes baseless accusations that I hang out with islamists?
Also the part where she claims to understand language better than me ‘because she’s foreign’ was a very odd card to pull, especially when it’s self-defeating as it also applies to me.
My only concern is her tendency to isolate sentences and argue with each – sometimes it works, but sometimes it becomes a quibble and often tends to lead to a feeling that your arguemnts are being taken out of
I usually do that to put emphasis on the specific way something is phrased, or to try and inject humour into an otherwise serious post.
Secondly, Ms K, you make the crucial point that language, any language, is ambivalent. There’s no one way of defining a word. To say that I’ll kill you isn’t the same as actually extinguishing someone’s life – it could just be an expression of anger without any consequence.
I will provide some quotes from the Quran, if you can find an alternative meaning then please tell me.
“The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females.”
“And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women.”
And from the Sira:
“Muhammad said, ‘Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?’ They replied in the affirmative. He said, ‘This is the deficiency in her intelligence.‘”
“Women comprise the majority of Hell’s occupants.”
The problem with your argument that the same concept (that women are lower than men in this example) is repeated in many places with different phrasing.
Sharia has to be subordinated to western law.
It is worth mentioning for people that don’t know, Sharia law doesn’t actually come from the Quran. It comes from some of the Hadiths and it isn’t seen as a part of Islam by some sects of the religion because of this.
Rowan Williams has speculated on how a truncated version of sharia can coexit with estern law, but where it can’t, then western law takes precedence.
No, your own post explains why this wouldn’t work;
think of the women who refuse to wear veils and reject arranged marriages.
A legally operating Sharia court would place sanctions and punishments on such women, which would be followed by other muslims.
Drac, thanks for the response, but quite frankly sometimes you can be quite condescending and down right insulting. the English language cannot perfectly convey any concept. How would you know that? I as a foreigner know it cannot in all cases. Even word foe word translations are not possible.
Why do you assume I was born in an English speaking country? I wasn’t, it’s my second language. A word for word translation isn’t required to convey the same concept, there are an almost infite combination of words that can describe the same thing.
So I cannot read Punjabi therefore cannot read my holy book, means it isn’t my holy book? Pathetic analysis.
How can you claim something is holy that by your own admission, you know nothing about? It makes no sense to me.
Ex Muslim atheist is the clue to your translators……they are rebels to their religion and suppressed life. Of course they will give you the negative.
I don’t think people lose the ability to read and understand the meaning of text when they become atheists.
most people hold views that aren’t compatible to western beliefs. I do. I’m sure even westerners don’t agree to all of western culturisms and beliefs.
This is true, but certain groups of people hold more conflicting beliefs than others.
i know the difference between a Muslim and an extremist Muslim
You might want to tell the police and immigration services your secret method, they would be very interested in preventing terrorism using it.
you don’t see, to that’s the problem here……and people like you who like to instil fear in Jo public about Muslims…..
I think it’s you that isn’t seeing properly, if I am ‘spreading fear’ about anything then it is Islam, not muslims.
you think you are knowledgeable on the Koran….
I have read the Quran, and discussed parts of it both with ex-muslims, and with muslims of both the Sunni and Shia sects. Can you explain what is wrong with my method of understanding the Quran?
you mingle with islamists….
Evidence?
You are inciting fear……you are singling out a culture ……Drac….I think you are the problem here
A religion is not a culture, you aren’t making any sense.
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