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@kent f OBE wrote:
Poli…..
Ok maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say but I am more confused with your further explanation….no problem though…we all have our opinions …. myself included, I often feel passionate about things I feel I know about and have experienced..
and it’s well documented I should have been born a blonde :lol:I have to stress though…the word gollywog is offensive because of the word wog….Like Panda i was called it to belittle me, to make it known I am different therefore not accepted, the word is stuck on the end of golly which is a black rag doll…there is no getting away from the word being offensive….and while you say most of us here grew up with gollywogs and didn’t think they were offensive I disagree…..I was at school with people my own age who also grew up with gollywog…many used the word in its derogitory form and even now as adults…people of similar ages to me have quite happily use the word ….that’s my opinion and my explanation to validate my opinion
I think there were very good reasons for the golliwog falling out of fashion and the use of the whole word or part of it for racial abuse was one of them. That is not political correctness gone mad – it is proper regard for other people.
Golliwogs have been making a comeback in recent years because people are coming to terms with more subtle differences, and trying to separate the doll from the insult.
The golliwog as a doll only has a negative connotation if you allow it to have. This is just like the St George’s Cross and the Union Flag, which a few years ago had become the symbol of the BNP and the far right. For a while, the most people flying and wearing the English flag in any numbers were doing it to celebrate their racism (I know a few other brave souls did too, before you all post and tell me you had an English flag).
Recently people have reclaimed their flags from the BNP and other such groups, and quite right too. We can now fly flags again without people thinking we are racist by doing it, but that is only because people made a conscious effort.
The rehabilitation of the golliwog is the same. There may be no need to vilify the doll itself, but let’s face it, the words gollywog and wog have been mixed up in some serious racist sh*t over the years. It may be a bit old fashioned as an insult, but it still exists.
Bringing the doll back is a great, but let’s not pretend that Robertson’s jam getting rid of it was political correctness gone mad. They were only trying to sell the most jam they could, and a mascot connected with a racist slur, was frankly a bit of a liability.
As I said in a previous post I had a black girlfriend who had had a golly since childhood, loved it and didn’t think it was racist, so I aint dissing the doll.
Let’s just say the poor wee thing has been mixed up in some unpleasantness beyond it’s control.
@panda12 wrote:
This thread, with this post will have 910 replies.
Anyone who posts the 1000th reply, wins the prestigious and much sought after, The Last Word Award and an evening with me, Noel Edmonds.
:D
Terms & Conditions Apply
1. The competition will be fair and open
2. Bribery and corruption will not be tolerated
3.The Judge’s Decision is Final
4. Panda is the Judge
5. Panda must win911 posts
:lol:
@(f)politics? wrote:
@momentaryloss wrote:
I understand some of the squeamishness people feel, given the fact that Jimmy Saville is dead, and we cannot be sure all of the stories are true.
I don’t think it has anything to do with being squeamishThe victims of abuse however deserve that we recognise their ordeal why do other people need to recognise their ordeal? why does the world need to know their darkest thoughts and fears ? this should be dealt with in a proper manner with proper professionals, not the media and do our best as a society to prevent this sort of behaviour. i agree, and feel with the many laws that have been bought in in this country over the last 40 years, both in the work place and out of it, although not perfect helps this, along with many campaigns from schools the police and so forth all help these situations, but none are perfect and there will always sadly be some people that don’t speak up.
Unfortunately, as Jimmy Saville is dead and justice cannot be done in any direct sense. Now that this is all so public, as well as the genuine stories, there will inevitably be exaggeration and people jumping on the bandwagon. Exactly my point this should have been dealt with privately, and without “actual ” fact stayed that way, unless a fact rather than supposition could be discovered beyond all doubt. This isn’t condoning anything he may of done though.Although we cannot try Jimmy Saville, neither can we ignore what has happened and sweep it under the carpet. So what should we do? just allow anyone who wants to tell a story lies or not tell it ? Maybe because he is dead, it doesnt matter anymore ? There will be many people who will feel guilt and feel that they could have done things differently. We should not take our anger out on them – they have plenty of time to dwell on what they did or didn’t do, and no doubt many people will feel guilty when they couldn’t have done anything in reality.
The person responsible was the one who abused his power and we cannot try him or fully understand what he did because he is dead. This story is therefore not over and there will be many more painful chapters. Plenty of suffering for those that have already suffered yes, as opposed to letting them get help, quietly and privately
Rather than minimise all this, we need to respect what has happened to vulnerable young girls (even if there is no way of judging the veracity of all of the stories). More than anything else we need to do our best to build a society where this is not acceptable.
Yes more than anything else we need to concentrate our time money and energy on preventing future occurences rather than raking over something that cannot be changed
Mmmmmmmm perhaps.
I kinda get the point about the media not necessarily being the best way to do these things. Trial by media of a dead man, with all the possibilities of inaccuracy and misrepresentation, – not good.
On the other hand, we cannot afford to give the impression that just because Jimmy Saville is gone, what he did doesn’t matter. That is exactly the impression we give if it is swept under the carpet.
I do feel a bit squeamish about condemning a dead man in his absence but people need to know that no-one can get away with it. That needs to be balanced against ruining the reputation of a man who cannot defend himself.
On balance I do think the victims need to be heard so that people will speak up in the future.
Yes, individuals do need support and counselling, but the people also need to know that you can and should speak out, whoever the culprit is – that means the world hearing people standing up and being counted.
Not the best justice, but I’m not sure we have a better way of doing it.
@jen_jen wrote:
Victims need to be heard, they need to be believed, they need to be supported otherwise they become victims all over again. I also think that a very clear message needs to be sent out that no matter who you are, no matter how famous and influential, no matter how much good work you do, this kind of behaviour can never be acceptable and can never be ignored or excused. No, nothing can be done about Jimmy Savile himself, but something good has to come out of all this badness. And yes, it will happen again, undoubtedly, but hopefully the next time the victims will feel able to come out sooner and people won’t discount it because of who the abuser is.
I agree completely.
It’s certainly a mad bad word and this will not be the last person to abuse his power sexually.
I hope everyone involved and everyone in this position in the future can find the strength to stand up and seek the help. Going to the press isn’t for every one and may not be the best thing.
The last thing we need however is people suffering in silence.
I understand some of the squeamishness people feel, given the fact that Jimmy Saville is dead, and we cannot be sure all of the stories are true.
The victims of abuse however deserve that we recognise their ordeal and do our best as a society to prevent this sort of behaviour.
Unfortunately, as Jimmy Saville is dead and justice cannot be done in any direct sense. Now that this is all so public, as well as the genuine stories, there will inevitably be exaggeration and people jumping on the bandwagon.
Although we cannot try Jimmy Saville, neither can we ignore what has happened and sweep it under the carpet. There will be many people who will feel guilt and feel that they could have done things differently. We should not take our anger out on them – they have plenty of time to dwell on what they did or didn’t do, and no doubt many people will feel guilty when they couldn’t have done anything in reality.
The person responsible was the one who abused his power and we cannot try him or fully understand what he did because he is dead. This story is therefore not over and there will be many more painful chapters.
Rather than minimise all this, we need to respect what has happened to vulnerable young girls (even if there is no way of judging the veracity of all of the stories). More than anything else we need to do our best to build a society where this is not acceptable.
The only issue about him being dead is that justice cannot be done if it is one sided. In that sense any attempt to “punish” anyone is difficult, including people who “should” have known. It is clear that lots of people thought he was creepy and did nothing.
It is however important that people have the chance to understand what happened to them and get whatever support or solace that they can.
As for the rest of us who weren’t involved in it, as other people have suggested, we need to understand as a society what is acceptable and unacceptable so that we do not repeat it.
According to what we know, Jimmy Saville got away with taking advantage of vulnerable girls as a result of being a show business star. He certainly was not the only one and I imagine that other DJs/rock stars/actors/comedians etc. also did things which were wrong, which may or may not ever come out.
There are numerous “casting couch” stories out there which are all pretty unsavoury. Let’s just hope that what was acceptable a couple of decades ago is unacceptable now. And let’s hope that people would have more courage now to come forward now.
We can’t really try Jimmy Saville in his absence now he is dead. In some ways he is an easy target, but then he did not live his life as a saint and his reputation will always a mixed one because of that.
Equally we can’t blame women for not coming forward during Jimmy Saville’s lifetime. Whatever the details of what happened to them or however consensual, they are struggling to come to terms with difficult things and should have our sympathy and support.
The thing that bothers me about this story is why we spent years messing about with extradition, when we could just have tried him here, slung him in jail and avoided the whole circus.
We have gone through this ridiculous pantomime just so that the Americans can say he received American justice.
He could have been locked up here, for the same crimes he is accused of in the USA, years ago.
@panda12 wrote:
@rogue trader wrote:
this bloke scares me more
Bloke? It’s bear cosy, ffs!
:D
Even worse, the person inside is a woman, so Bungle wasn’t even a bloke!
:lol:
I agree.
The gollywog wasn’t offensive as such, but when it was removed from the jam jars because the word was a very common form of abuse.
The doll just got caught up by being associated with a word which was used as a racist insult. Depending on what story you believe, when it was invented it wasn’t called a gollywog. It is understandable, however, as attitudes changed, that Robinsons didn’t want to be associated with a racist insult so dropped the doll.
The word gollywog just doesn’t seem to have the same power as an insult nowadays. Other words are less offensive too, just like the word gay is used by people to describe themselves now, just as rappers call themselves niggas.
As for the doll itself, a few years ago, my then girlfriend, who was black, had a gollwog for years which she had loved. She didn’t think the doll was offensive so why should I?
8)
Some of the consent laws in other countries are designed to stop teenagers experimenting with each other being turned into criminals, e.g. a 16 year old boy and a 15 year old girl. In those cases it is still considered illegal for a 30 year old to have sex with a 15 year old.
Our law is just straightforward with no shades of grey. I sometimes wonder about what makes parents try to criminalise a teenage boy experimenting with someone his own age. Completely different for a 30 year old taking advantage of a younger girl. The context is everything. Remember not too long ago it was illegal for two gay 17 year olds to mess about with each other. What start to life would it be for them to end up in the legal system?
