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I’ve given up on replying to Emma. The poor woman’s off her head and you’ll not get any sense out of her.
The French national anthem has the most inspiring lyrics and the tune is uplifting too.
@forumhostpb wrote:
Well not necessarily Mr B. I apologise to you for not being an ‘apologist’ for the Palestinian cause and also for perhaps sympathising with the Israeli side of things. You have your view and you’re entitled to it.
I am afraid that I cannot get over excited with the historical aspect of all this. It seems to me that for every fact or argument put forward on one side there seems to be a counter point put on behalf of the other side. Both sides are right and the other side is wrong anyway.
Why did you kill my people today…. because your lot killed my people yesterday…. yes but that was because your lot killed my people the day before and so on and so forth. Well why not just stop killing the other side right now…. well we won’t stop until they do….. yes but they won’t stop until you do…. yes but we won’t stop until………………… etc etc.
Well why not just let them have the land they want which they say is theirs anyway….. because it’s not theirs it’s ours…. but they got there first….. no they didn’t we were there in 200 BC…. no you wern’t, they were there in 500BC…. no they wern’t, we were there in ……etc etc.
So sorry if my posts appear somewhat frivolous Mr B but I lost interest many many years ago in the rights and wrongs of this stupid childish squabble. Neither side is going to give in or accept the other, so my view is to simply let them get on with it and fight each other to the death. Sooner or later one side will slaughter all of the other and matters will no doubt rest there.
I do have a sneaking regard for the Israelis. They don’t ponce about mouthing off about how hard they are. If you mess with them they take you out. This is a language that terrorist murderers seem to understand.
Well I find it hard to take you seriously because all your posts seem to be over the top. My point is simple – Palestinians are entitled to freedom and human rights. Israel is obliged under international law to remove its settlements from Arab territory and hand back the occupied territories to the arabs. Your opinion about palestinian militant groups is irrelevant because it has no bearing upon the entitlement to human rights and liberty of the Palestinian population. Anyway, all this self-righteous posturing about terrorism is nonsensical if you defend the state terror carried out by the Israeli government. Collective punishment is a war crime so there is no excuse for persecuting and killing innocent civilians. As I said before, either you believe in human rights or you don’t and if you don’t then you’re not much better than the people you condemn.
@forumhostpb wrote:
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
…Finally, the van carrying rockets was actually an ordinary car carrying 2 militants. 9 innocent by-standers were killed by the explosion. Imagine a helicopter gunship hitting a car on your high-street and you’ll get some impression of what the Palestinians have to put up with on a regular basis.
Oh how simply awful. Those nasty Israelis actually having the temerity to attack a car and not a van. That will never do now will it? They even managed to bag two ”militants” eh? (Militants = terrorist murderers). Well that’ll teach them to hump Quassam rockets around. If they had been less stupid and simply driven them straight to the firing point (on the beach???) instead of pissing about and showing off to their seedy mates they could have fired the rockets and killed a few more Jews.
I’ll bet those two ”militants” won’t be shagging 70 virgins tonight eh?
BTW just how stupid do these suicide bombers have to be. Do they really believe that they are going to be given 70 virgins absolutely gagging for it??? I mean really??? Haven’t they managed to work out yet that with all the suicide bombers going to that great bedroom in the sky over the last few years, the entire Middle East has run out of dead virgins for them to hump.
Well it’s obvious that PB is baiting again. I gave him the benefit of the doubt before but now it’s clear he’s just saying this stuff to solicit a response. It’s odd that there’s a section dedicated to serious posts and yet it actually seems dedicated to baiting, trolling and other forms of taking the p1ss. It does seem like a waste of time sometimes.
Didn’t he have some sort of mental disability? Maybe that explains why he confessed. Alternatively, the police gained a confession from him under duress.
She hit the nail on the head. Even some people born and bred in England don’t feel welcome here. The country would be a much more harmonious place if it wasn’t for all the hate-mongering of right-wing tabloids and certain right-wing parties. They encourage a climate of ignorance and prejudice.
Firstly, taking land by war is illegal and it was Israel that launched a pre-emptive strike in 1967 anyway.
As for the term Palestinian being created in 1967, what about the Philistines? Philistine is the name of an ancient people from that land. The arabic for Palestine is “Falastin” or something like that, so I guess you were wrong on that point too Drivel. Palestinians claim descent from the Canaanites and so they say their history on that land goes back 5000 years. As I said before the Hebrews moved to palestine from elsewhere in the region.
As for refugees, Jordan is full of Palestinian refugees but again the point is that you wouldn’t give a refugee citizenship if you only intended them to stay in your country on a temporary basis. So the refugee camps are there as a reminder that these people have a right to return to their own homeland. The refugee issue is a contentious issue and if it looks like the refugees have a new permanent home then it could be argued that they should stay there.
Finally, the van carrying rockets was actually an ordinary car carrying 2 militants. 9 innocent by-standers were killed by the explosion. Imagine a helicopter gunship hitting a car on your high-street and you’ll get some impression of what the Palestinians have to put up with on a regular basis.
Drivel’s history of that area is predictably flawed. First of all, the Hebrews were not the original inhabitants of that land, the Canaanites were. They arrived there in 3000 bc, the Hebrews moved there a long time later. Secondly the jews did not have continuous rule over that land there were several people such as the assyrians who ruled there over the centuries before the Romans arrived. The land had been called Palestine since the days of antiquity, so the idea that “Palestine” is a modern myth is sheer absurdity.
Drivel also says that Israel gave back most of the land it took after each war which again is complete nonsense considering something like 60% of the West Bank is covered in illegal Israeli settlements. There is also the Golan heights which were taken from Syria and are still under Israel occupation.
The next flaw in drivel’s argument is that the refugees were fleeing from the Arab armies. He’s failed to mention the actions of the zionist militant groups that were involved in massacring palestinians such as the massacre at Deir Yassin. People often forget that Israel was founded by “terrorists”. It is true that some refugees fled the fighting but to imply that they were simply running away once the arab armies entered the scene is untrue.
Of course the arab states didn’t integrate the refugees into their own population because refugees have the right to return to their homelands. To integrate refugees would have been a rejection of that inalienable right.
Finally, the idea of a jihad by the arab states against Israel is another load of crap because most of the governments if I remember correctly were secular e.g. Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan
One of the biggest problems of the Palestinians is that they are constantly the subject of disinformation campaigns. Lies are spread about them such as there were no Palestinians in Palestine until the 1940s, there was no palestinian history, palestinians hide behind women and children, etc. It’s all crap aimed at demonizing them.
The Israelis have taken Palestinian land because the West Bank was not part of Jordan it was part of Palestine. Jordanian forces moved into the area during one of the conflicts. The “green line” was established in 1949 I think and that is the recognized boundary for the state of Israel. The annexation of the West Bank is illegal and violates the 4th Geneva convention (the one that relates to the protection of civilians).
The British and the US state department during the time of the British mandate in Palestine opposed the creation of a Jewish state there because they foresaw endless years of bloodshed if that were to happen. President Truman, however, laughed off these warnings thinking they were over-the-top and gave his full support to the zionist movement.
People talk about the aggression of the Arab states towards Israel but put yourself in their shoes. If someone suddenly told you that they were going to take a huge chunk of your land and build a Jewish state without consulting you or anything like that, how would you react? People constantly whine about immigration in this country but imagine if a huge chunk of this country was going to be taken to build a new country mostly for foreigners? Would there be a war? I suspect so.
Of course Hamas opposes the referendum because they don’t want to be forced into recognizing Israel while getting nothing in return. They have said though that they would be willing to make a peace deal with Israel if there was an end to the occupation. However the Palestinian president who is a member of Fatah does recognize the state of Israel and there is absolutely no reason why the Israeli government should refuse to talk to him.
People should also remember that militants are not just islamic extremists. There are Christians, and there are left-wing secular groups too. The Israelis don’t differentiate between Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Muslims, all Palestinians face DAILY persecution. Nelson Mandela has compared the Palestinian situation to the apartheid system. Also, one survivor of the Warsaw ghetto saw similiarities in the suffering of ordinary Palestinians and the suffering that he and his own people went through.
I’ve just heard that 9 more innocent Palestinians were killed today by an Israeli missile that strayed off target. It’s a disgrace that for so long the USA have allowed Israel to carry out war crimes and deprive innocent civilians of their basic human rights. History will vindicate the Palestinian liberation struggle just as it has vindicated all other national liberation movements over the centuries.
@forumhostpb wrote:
Very true Pikey. All the Arabs do is moan and whinge about how unfair it all is whilst the Jews get on and develop their bit of desert, grow crops build businesses and so on.
Meanwhile the Palestinians continue to live like pigs constantly begging for International financial handouts and blaming everybody but themselves for the mess they’re in.
So it’s the Palestinian’s fault that there land is being stolen from them. It’s their fault that they are being persecuted on their own land by a foreign army? I guess the Poles should have stopped moaning in 1939 when the Germans invaded.
The problem here is that you have a typical European colonialist view of the world. You see the Israelis as the good guys because many of them emigrated to the middle east from Europe while you view the dark-skinned arabs as the bad guys for having the audacity to take up arms against their oppressors. It’s like those old cowboy films where the godly cowboys are being terrorized by indian savages. The fact that an entire population is being persecuted and their land is being stolen from them is just an inconvenient side-issue for the land-grabbing propagandists.
It’s all well and good people talking about negotiated peace deals but which side is refusing to negotiate? It’s the Israelis. Which side has refused to accept the “road map” in its entirety with no preconditions? The Israelis. Also ask yourselves why Olmert has dismissed the idea of a palestinian referendum on the recognition of Israel? It’s because the Israeli government doesn’t really want to conduct meaningful negotiations. They don’t want to see a total end to the occupation of Arab land.
The mandate that created Israel also proposed an Arab state next door to Israel. If you accept that Israel has a right to exist then you must also believe in the creation of a Palestinian state on the West bank. Furthermore, considering the Palestinians have certain inalienable rights under international law how can anyone try to defend their persecution? Either you believe in international law or you don’t and if you don’t then what makes you any better than the people that you condemn? The bottom line is that collective punishment is illegal so there is no justification in depriving people of their human rights due to the actions of militant groups. State terror is no better than militant terror, in fact it’s often more deadly.
