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Are we wasting our time expecting liberal democracy to take root in cultures that do not share our fundamentally Christian roots? Perhaps it is like sowing seed onto sand. Or, are the twin concepts of liberty and democracy the inalienable rights of the whole of mankind and potentially universal?
That’s missing the point, Tomster. For instance, we can have an authoritarian liberal democracy where crime and opposing liberalism are ruthlessly quashed.
The concepts of liberty and equality are in permanent tension in a modern Western state. The state cannot allow too much liberty without repressing equality and vice versa. America, for example, would tend to favour individual liberty, the right to the pursuit of happiness for example, while European states, on the whole, would tend to promote equality through things like national health services etc. But it’s just matters of degree.
What I’m asking is if there needs to be a Christian background to a society in order for such systems to flourish.
you had me right up to fundamentaly christian.
@pikey wrote:
Are we wasting our time expecting liberal democracy to take root in cultures that do not share our fundamentally Christian roots? Perhaps it is like sowing seed onto sand. Or, are the twin concepts of liberty and democracy the inalienable rights of the whole of mankind and potentially universal?
True believers hand over their liberty to their scriptures.
They al crave heaven, and the sooner they get there the
better I say! :twisted:@pete wrote:
Jeez more politics :?
Yeah. That’d be Serious Posts, Pete.
@Lead wrote:
you had me right up to fundamentaly christian.
I didn’t mean fundamentally as in very bible bashing, Sharpie, rather based on a largely Christian tradition.
Perhaps I need to clarify more. Liberal democracy has evolved over a long period, with much tribulation and bloodshed, in now largely secular, previously Christian nations. Is it only really suited to such nations? Are we wasting our time trying to establish it and get it to flourish in an Islamic state like Afghanistan or Iraq? Do they need the same amount of time, upheaval and slaughter as we did to sort it out for themselves or can it be imposed?
:-s Well don’t fucking reply to the topic then, man. I don’t follow your posts around saying, oh no, not another smarmy post, do I? This is Current Affairs & Serious Posts. The thread isn’t even directly about politicians themselves. You go and chat about whatever you want, but don’t try and tell me what I should or shouldn’t be discussing. There are a squillion threads on these boards I have absolutely no interest in whatsoever. Do I need to go and grumble on each of them? Of course not. If you’re not interested, don’t comment. Elementary.
@pete wrote:
I know its the serious posts but politics is f*cking boring theyre all pretty much self serving individuals full of hot air and promises they cant or wont keep either that or full of unattainable ideals None of them can answer a question directly with a simple yes or no and we vote for the silly ba*tards
Sounds like some message board users doesn’t it???
@pikey wrote:
:-s Well don’t fucking reply to the topic then, man. I don’t follow your posts around saying, oh no, not another smarmy post, do I? This is Current Affairs & Serious Posts. The thread isn’t even directly about politicians themselves. You go and chat about whatever you want, but don’t try and tell me what I should or shouldn’t be discussing. There are a squillion threads on these boards I have absolutely no interest in whatsoever. Do I need to go and grumble on each of them? Of course not. If you’re not interested, don’t comment. Elementary.
Roughly translated Pete as “Sod off and play with your train set !!!”
Er…. if it helps Pete, I think he was using the word ”smarmy” as an adjective to describe your posts rather than suggesting that you had used the word yourself.
Of course you are perfectly entitled to say that your posts are not ”smarmy” – but then that is one opinion isn’t it???
I don’t think liberalism is very important. Democracy is the important issue. It’s also not important for a country to be Christian in order for democracy to flourish. The world’s biggest democracy is India which doesn’t have a Christian tradition.
To a certain extent, liberalism has eroded some long-held principles for societies and this change hasn’t always been for the better. So I don’t think we should necessarily be getting other countries to change their own concepts of personal freedom.
It also has to be remembered that liberal Western democracies have frequently played a role in suppressing freedom and democracy in other parts of the world, including countries with no tradition of Christianity.
The strategies for Iraq and afghanistan were poorly planned which is why things are so bad there and democracy hasn’t really taken hold. The decision to invade Iraq in the first place was a ridiculous idea.
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