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Why is it that you think that no muslim can be accepted into our society. I have several friends who are muslim, I can promise you that they pose no threat (although none of them live in Britain).
For purely strategic reasons. Accepting Muslims in society normalises the existence of Islam, and normalising the existence of Islam–viewing it as just an ordinary part of society–will lead to it ultimately dominating the Western world.
I completely accept that there absolutely are good people who identify as Muslims, but only on the basis that they don’t know enough about their religion, or don’t bother following it properly. While I agree that these nominal Muslims don’t pose a threat as such in the classical sense, I would argue, however, that they do pose a threat indirectly by acting as enablers of Islam, and as enablers of Muslims who are knowledgable about it and do take it seriously. They act to non-intentionally mislead the non-Muslim populace into thinking that the Islam that they identify with (but don’t fully know about or properly adhere to), is just as benign as they are as individual nominal Muslims – a view that is both wrong and dangerous for a non-Muslim populace to come to believe. A prime example of this is people falling in love with Nadiya Hussain from the Great British Bake Off and then warming to her Islamic faith as a result, because she’s apparently “nice and didn’t turn into a terrorist, so it can’t be that bad”. There too is also the case that when the chips are down, nominal Muslims will be likely to choose to side with other Muslims around them, rather than with non-Muslims who take issue with their religion.
Essentially if you posit that standard mainstream Islam prescribes a huge amount of hatred and aggression towards all non-Muslims and all non-Islamic societies and values; that a very large percentage of Muslims will always be adhering properly to their faith; and that there’s absolutely no chance of reform happening, then you’re left with two unfortunately bleak options of either: tolerating it while knowing that it will eventually prevail, or resisting it and acting to completely stamp it out in it’s entirety. It really is as simplistic choice as that.
You can’t accept and tolerate Islam on one hand, but then get mad at the people who follow it properly on the other (and at all the inevitable social ills that result). This essentially is where Western governments stand right now; it’s a completely a self-defeating position to take and Islam is gaining traction because of it. If Western values are to be upheld into the foreseeable future, then what needs to happen is that society needs to completely reject Islam in it’s entirety. Any further Islamic buildings and institutions need to be prohibited from being built, and those who currently identify as adherents of it need to be challenged and pressured into stepping away from it–including nominal Muslims–with the ultimate goals-in-mind being to firstly contain its growth and expansion, and to then shrink its overall influence while simultaneously decreasing the amount of adherents to it.
It’s either Islam or the West, they can’t coexist – one has to completely annihilate the other, one way or another. A clash of civilisations is essentially unfolding, and everyone has to choose their side.
When I first started reading the article I wondered why an Indian was involved so publically in Muslim matters….then continued to read and saw he was an iman etc…(I thought his name was Indian) on reading your response BB I’ve searched the Dr and Wiki says he is a Muslim imam
I don’t see any Wiki on him, but if he is an imam then it’ll only be in the sense of it being in name only (or self-proclaimed); he will have zero credibility or authority in the mainstream Sunni Muslim world. Quotes from him that I’ve quickly glanced at suggests he doesn’t respect the Sunnah, which practically every Sunni Muslim will tell you is an absolutely integral part of Islam and of being a Muslim (Sunni is based on the word Sunnah itself). Rather than an Imam, and rather than even a Muslim, he will overwhelmingly be branded as what Muslims refer to as a Munafiqun [a hypocrite/non-believer] for professing to be an imam/Muslim with extremely non-Islamic views.
So what I first automatically assumed to be deviousness from a learned and respected imam, is probably actually just him being an ill-informed potato.
As an example, regarding the marriage of Muslim women to non-Muslim men (which is categorically forbidden in Islam) he writes: “There is no verse in the Holy Quran that bans Muslim women from marrying non-Muslim men,” Imam Hargey told Al Jazeera. “Almighty God would have revealed explicit directives if Muslim women were not allowed to marry outside the faith. As Muslim men are entitled to marry women from the People of the Book who are not Muslim [Surah al-Maidah 5:5], the same right must be afforded to Muslim women as Islam is a gender-equal religion.”
And here now is the Qur’an:
Qur’an: 2:221 And do not marry polytheistic women until they believe. And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist, even though she might please you. And do not marry polytheistic men [to your women] until they believe. And a believing slave is better than a polytheist, even though he might please you. Those invite [you] to the Fire, but Allah invites to Paradise and to forgiveness, by His permission. And He makes clear His verses to the people that perhaps they may remember
just to touch on your earlier response……seems a case when Muslims genuinely want to change things for the better some will think it’s sly and underhand….damned if they do damned if they don’t
And for good reason: you simply can’t trust them.
I get how it might seem unfair to suspect and criticise a Muslim who comes out proclaiming to want to change things for the better – perhaps even paranoid, but the suspicion and criticism is absolutely warranted because as said earlier:- 1) Islamic text makes a fundamental class distinction between Muslims and non-Muslims.
- 2) Islamic text orders jihad for Muslims to subjugate non-Muslims and take over all non-Islamic societies.
- 3) Islamic text permits and encourages all forms of deception towards non-Muslims to both protect Islam from any harm that might come from them, and to expand it onto them.
Learned Muslims everywhere will be very conscious of how non-Muslims view Islam and will be seeking to drive a false distinction between Islam/Islamism as a protective measure. They will try to mislead people into believing that mainstream Islam is like any other religion, that they are on your side in espousing British/Western values, and that the problem is really just with a minority of extremists who “misinterpret” Islam – that we supposedly all collectively have to come together to defeat. It’s akin to them hugging and reassuring you on one hand, while simultaneously smothering you to death on the other. They are two-faced, and proudly so.
Yes not all Muslims will intentionally be trying to mislead (due to different levels of knowledge and fervour), but because the justifications to do so are so prevalent throughout the entirety of Islam’s texts, then it would be wise to automatically assume that they all are by default – particularly regarding Muslims in prominent positions, and particularly regarding Muslims who take it upon themselves to stand in the media spotlight as Islamic spokespersons (such as the apparent “imam” guy).
… ^ according to Google that author isn’t actually an imam and he rejects the entire Sunnah as well, so not really Muslim either. So might not be any foul play there afterall, but it is a piece that could easily as gone for being propaganda by any typical Sunni Muslim mouthpiece, they really are that sly.
Read this fantastic article this morning…yes its the DM…I havent looked to see if it is anywhere else. Its written by a Muslim genteleman, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4003946/I-despair-British-Muslims-choose-live-virtual-apartheid-writes-Dr-Taj-Hargey.html
I’m always suspicious about articles like these, especially when the author is a Muslim.
On the face of it they’re words that people want to hear, but mixed in with it is a discrete framing of there being a nice tolerant Islam that everyone should be championing, against a bad and intolerant one that needs ousting. This is done to get people on-side and to fundamentally accept the existence of Islam in society via being duped into believing that it’s benign – which of course it isn’t. He’s an imam too so he knows what he’s doing. I have no doubt that he wants society to fall to Islam just as much as any “Islamists” or “misinformed extremists” that he publicly denounces.
I dont know how to copy & quote:
“It is worth mentioning for people that don’t know, Sharia law doesn’t actually come from the Quran. It comes from some of the Hadiths and it isn’t seen as a part of Islam by some sects of the religion because of this.” – Incorrect – Sharia law does come from the Quran and from fatwas (which may be based on hadiths). Above all there is no such thing as a sharia court. It is subordinated to the law of the land (assume UK). It has no legal bearing on the decision. People go to the sharia councils for advice and elder ruling which is considered ‘halal’ – a form of mediation. If there is any disagreement then the party may go to the UK courts for another verdict which is legally binding. The council arbitrates on varieity of matters ranging from financial, commercial matters or (i believe the majority of cases) divorce. A talak given by a council is a sharia compliant document – but it has no legal bearing. If the husband (for example) wants to sponser a wife outside from the UK then they will have to go thru a UK divorce court but with the understanding that they have settled their financial/custodial matters and all that remains is usually a draft order which is sealed by the judge.
Muslims do not respect UK law, for them Sharia law is gods law and is the only law that they’re obligated to respect and obey. What you state as being advisory is as good as being legally binding within Muslim communities because, as drac rightfully said, it is the Muslim communities themselves that act to enforce it. Any Muslims that step out of the fold and go against Sharia rulings will be punished for it by other Muslims, and will therefore be deterred from seeking resolution via the national police and judiciary system.
2. Jihad – partially correct but very heavily biased. The arab word al-aharb has over 40 different meanings depending on the context. It ranges from an internal struggle, to outside single struggle to the heavily biased war-mongering on non-believers.
I notice you subtly left out the 40 meanings of jihad from your analysis but hey ho
I’ve never heard of the term al-aharb but it doesn’t mean jihad and isn’t found in the Qur’an from what I can tell. The closest I know of is maybe al-harb which just means “war”, but again that isn’t jihad. The term “jihad” is based on the Arabic triliteral root of “J-H-D” and it means “struggle” or “to strive hard” and contextually is overwhelmingly interpreted in the sense of conflict, of struggling and striving hard in the name of Allah against non-believers to both defend Islam and to establish global Islamic hegemony. It’s no coincidence that a participant of jihad is called a “mujahid” with it’s plural form being “mujahideen” – a term which groups such as ISIS and Al-Qaeda proudly refer to themselves as being; soldiers of Allah.
The whole inner spiritual jihad vs outer jihad distinction also has little merit as the hadith that this is based upon are not only weak, but fabricated.
3. Reading a book does not mean you understand it. I can read kanji (very limited!) but i cannot comprehend the meanings behind the images. It requires someone to teach/explore the meanings. The standard arabic of the Quran is written in a short-hand. It assumes that the reader has read the text in the context of the history. Picking out single sentenances from obvious alt-right/heavily biased sites will give a meaning – reading the sura (quote) from understanding the context and/or history behind it gives another interpretation.
This is a good argument for why religions need to be understood in their proper contexts and interpretations, and in this regard I agree. This is also what those who take issue with actual benign religions like Christianity really need to keep in mind before randomly pointing to any bad words within it and declaring how similarly evil it is to Islam. “but but, the old testament!!…”
What I disagree with you on there, is that the alt-right/heavily biased sites you allude to are distorting it’s true contexts and interpretations. The majority of the sites I’ve seen that paint a negative picture of Islam seem to be familiar with how Islam is structured and how it’s suppose to be understood, with some even referencing the authoritative mainstream sources that are used by Islam’s own adherents for coming to an accurate understanding of it – sites such as http://wikiislam.net. With Islam, the more you understand it properly with it’s rightful contexts and interpretations, the worse it seems. It’s the complete opposite for Christianity.
4. Going back to the original posters statement – i am still confused where muslims have failed to intergrate and why muslims were pointed out rather than other religions from buddists, to hindus to zen etc…. Anyways must dash for my nails – they are looking awful (1 week + without any tlc!) MM
Lol.
so, BB, you want an all-out religious war? Or what??
There already is one taking place. It’s why non-Muslims all around the world are facing severe persecution, bloodshed and–particularly in the case of religious minorities in the Middle East (Christians especially)–extinction. Islam is relentlessly continuing the global jihad against non-Muslims and non-Islamic societies that it’s been aggressively waging for the last 1, 400 years, and people need to wake up before it’s too late to do anything about it.
My understanding is that your posts on Jo Cox were banned from the site – I believe it was from fear of legal action being taken, though Martin may correct me on that. You want to take Martin out too as a Muslim and EU-lover???
You make it clear that your intolerance is absolute, and that your definition of a Western civilisation is a very perverted one, emptied of anything that makes our society worth defending against radical Islam.
And here is typical weasel skep desperately trying to tag anyone whose aim is to defend Western values and traditions–against the onslaught of a barbaric Islamic death cult that seeks to completely eradicate and replace them with the extremely abhorrent Sharia law–as an intolerant/far-right/racist/KKK member/Nazi etc. Gets a bit old after a while.
I’m not aware of anything being deleted, bit disappointed if it was but that’s completely up to him to do at his discretion as it’s his website. Though lol at legal action, let me know what post was deleted and I’ll be happy to send a copy of it to the police myself if you like.
Btw what you refer to as “radical Islam”, is just standard Islam.
Though I fully expect you to already know this and are just trying to create the misleading impression that a nice moderate and peaceful Islam exists and is fine, and that it’s really just a distorted radical version of Islam followed by a few nutty extremists that’s the real problem which needs tackling.I’d trust that most people who are reading through this are switched on enough to understand why exactly somebody who stands with Islam in wanting the demise of the Western world and all of it’s values, would deliberately be trying to convince people of this false narrative of there being a good vs bad Islam – of what exactly it aims to achieve.
In particular, the attempt to equate Islam with religions such as Christianity is–perhaps coincidentally in this case (but perhaps not)– a strategy that “Islamists” use to the pull the wool over peoples eyes, to trick them into believing that religions are equally as benign or as equally as dangerous as each other, and that any special attention placed upon Islam is therefore not warranted. This of course is categorically wrong; certain religions are miles apart in content, in language, in mainstream interpretation, and in the the effect they have had, and continue to have, on believers through the ages. The fact that Judaeo-Christian values and principles are what the entire Western world is founded upon, is a crucial factor for why we now have all the equalities, civil liberties, rights and freedoms that we currently enjoy; and why there exists such a stark contrast between our Judaeo-Christian based Western world, and that of Middle Eastern Arab cesspit’s which have Islamic values and principles as their foundation – places where rape victims are punished and people are routinely stoned to death, etc.
No one should trust anything skep writes, his agenda should be obvious by now.
He’s not only wrong but flat-out misleading, and deliberately so.Will post a bit more when I have some time.
BB, are you suggesting there are no intolerant commandments or recommendations in the holy books of other religions?
…
Some discriminate a little bit maybe in terms of a few petty minor things, yeah… but absolutely nowhere near the level of the pure vitriol that’s contained within Islam.
I’m saying there’s no moral equivalence between Islam and the other religions – not if they’re understood properly. Islam stands in an entire league of it’s own.
Your assessment of Islam is largely accurate BB, it’s as much a political ideology as a religion which is where it differers from christianity and most people don’t understand this. It is worth mentioning of course that not all muslims are Islamists, even if a narrow majority appear to be.
Yep. Though personally for me I don’t make any distinction between a Muslim and an Islamist. A true Muslim who adheres properly to mainstream Islam is what we in the West would label an Islamist, but I completely agree with your point that not all Muslims are true Muslims. There’s different degrees of religious knowledge and fervour that have to be factored in.
People like skeptical_guy hate the Western world and are in alignment with Islamic values.
Not quite sure I agree with you on this one, there are people like that but I don’t think Skep is an Islamist
He’s either a Muslim (or “Islamist” if you like) himself, or a hard left progressive – which in my view is just as bad because they’re on the same team; both want the downfall of Western society and are pushing to make it happen, just perhaps for slightly different reasons. They are natural allies.
BB – hahaha. You’re like SHR – no disagreeing with you, is there?
The brothers have your address, BB. Be afraid, be very afraid- sala’am – bows to Mecca and starts to froth at the mouth as I rant against Western values…
but wait, aren’t freedom of speech and religion Western values????
Disagree all you want but it’s obvious that I detest what you stand for and that I think you’re a weasel.
Lots of things said on this thread are the type of comments that incite scaremongering. Quite the experts on the Quran. Personally ive never read it or got a friend to interpret it word for word for me and ive never read an online translation by some random. Because that would not be a true interpretation. Infact I have never read my religious bible, I couldn’t if I tried, because I cant read Punjabi. To be honest I hardly know whats written in it, so I don’t pretend to be an expert. Some of the comments I have heard in reference to the Quran. The ones relating to a muslim should not befriend a non muslim and if they do or have the motive is to eventually be their downfall in a nutshell. Well I have known and are friends with a couple of muslims and ive not been murdered yet. Maybe watch this space? And also the comment regarding them not celebrating others happiness and religious festivities. Again, the muslims I know have been to huge family celebrations of mine, celebrating dancing and eating and drinking our food, and have wished us happy Diwali. A muslim family moved into my mums road a few years ago, the little girl made my mum a happy Diwali card. Ive never given my muma Diwali card lol. As you were.
If you don’t know anything about it, then why do you see yourself fit to dismiss what’s being said here regarding it as not being true, or as just scaremongering? Do you not see how both ignorant and arrogant it is to do that?
Those links about Muslims not mixing with non-Muslims, and not being able to share in others festivities, are from a site run by Islamic scholars with a Muslim audience in mind to help them better understand their own religion. You might not like what it says, but that’s standard Islamic teachings, and having known one or two Muslims that might not have followed them properly does not then invalidate those teachings or reflect on the religious conviction of the broader Muslim community.
And to quickly get back to and answer the OP…
We in this country, seem to pander to the Muslim community for some reason. Why? I would like someone to explain to me in simple English, why this is?
Mainly because people like this live here in unfortunately large numbers:
and people like you who like to instil fear in Jo public about Muslims….. you think you are knowledgeable on the Koran….you mingle with islamists….You are inciting fear……you are singling out a culture ……Drac….I think you are the problem here
It’s hilarious that some pro-EU commentators are trying to make out that this is a reflection of national sentiment against leaving the EU, when Richmond is a London borough that voted 75% in favour of remaining. It’s not really that shocking that they’ve now elected the anti-democratic Lib Dems who want to stay in the EU at all costs. They’re still irrelevant and still in the minority nationally. Full Brexit is going to happen regardless of how much remainers winge and whine about it.
The breaking point is likely in France, where Marine Le Pen is in with a very real chance of victory in May. If she wins, then all bets ar off. My guess is it’s the end of the EU, almost certainly the end of the Eurozone. Hard or soft brexit becomes meaningless at that point.
You forgot about the Netherlands too where Geert Wilders and his party PVV is leading nationally in all of the polls in the run-up to their general election in March, 2017. He’s anti-islam, anti-EU and has vowed to hold a referendum like we did. Nexit is next. The EU is done. Good riddance.
From the point you’ve made I can see how comments including mine are ignorant. Think the main point is that the reason schools aren’t celebrating Christmas etc seems purely because muslims are being offended. Perhaps it is because no one in schools celebrate a muslim festival? I personally don’t know any muslim festivals, I’m assuming Ramadam isn’t a festival. Anyway can Ramadam be celebrated and taught along side festivals like Diwali and Christmas? I don’t know enough about it and my questions might seem stupid, but I’m not too proud to ask questions and if I look stupid I look stupid. Wont be the first time and certainly wont be the last.
Muslims are forbidden from celebrating or participating in non-Islamic holidays or festivities; and also forbidden from congratulating or showing joy with those who do. Islam is an extremely intolerant religion.
A MAJORITY of muslims are radical, every reliable study on muslim populations in Europe show this. I don’t understand how anyone can defend them.
I can. People like skeptical_guy hate the Western world and are in alignment with Islamic values. That’s why you will only get a defence of Muslims/Islam from him while trying to make out that those who actually stand for Western values and seek to defend and uphold them, are just nasty/racist/xenophobics yadda yadda yadda.
good point, Martin. Christianity and Islam are evangelistic – they seek to convert. Most muslims do not advocate violence. They seek peaceful conversion. They see jihad – holy war – in terms of evangelising, just as Christians conduct a holy war in non-military terms (Onward, Christian soldiers). I don’t like Islam, but I’ve found the Muslims I’ve met are much more considerate and respectful to people than a lot of Christians I’ve met. That’s why mutual tolerance is essential.
Garbage.
I think there are a few communities in this country who do not integrate wholeheartedly. Muslims in my opinion are the worst, followed by Bangladeshis. The Chinese and gypsies also. I know there are pockets of areas in the country where Indians are quite insular too. whilst the muslims will work etc, they rarely socialise with non muslims. Even in a mixed marriage which is normally a white female marrying a Muslim male the female has to convert to Islam. My friends daughter (Indian) married a Muslim and she converted too. It’s their way or the highway. it bugs me we pander to the Muslim community so much. Why? What is their hold as a small community on the nation that this happens? as for Christmas being further and further watered down to suit others is ridiculous! Fair enough they don’t celebrate it, I don’t celebrate Ramadan but I’m not offended by it. I always feel a bit hypocritical with my views on subjects like this. I know baptised sikhs wear turbans and our older generation ladies where our Indian clothes, and some may see that as not integrating. But my mum is baptised and wears Indian clothes but has every year celebrated Christmas since she came here aged 18. So where my opinions are biased to Indians I’m sure Muslims could give their opinions the same maybe. all said and done I don’t want to offend anyone either. I’ve posted from my personal experiences and I know not every single person in any given community is the same and guys I don’t mind if anyone wants to ask me anything
As a testament to the amount of disdain contained within Islam towards non-Muslims, it is forbidden for Muslims to be friends with or mix with non-Muslims.
This is mostly why they don’t and won’t integrate.
Take a read: https://islamqa.info/en/59879 (kaafir = non-Muslim)
- “Allaah has forbidden the believers to take the kaafireen (disbelievers) as friends, and He has issued a stern warning against doing that. “
- “One of the forms of making friends with the kaafirs which is forbidden is taking them as friends and companions, mixing with them and eating and playing with them.”
