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Ok at least we can tolerate our coexistence! Like we do “tolerate” the fact that Hijab is banned in some European countries and now Muslims are banned from entering the USA land, if they come from countries of conflict (Syria, Irak, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, Lybia).
I support face covering burqas being banned but I don’t really see any reason to ban hijabs.
Regarding the ‘muslim ban’, I will mention one thing about it that isn’t being accurately reported on by the media here, I don’t know if it is in Morocco. This was already part of US law, Obama created the Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015, all Trump has really done is applied the restrictions that already existed in law. Even prior to this Obama placed a ban on people from Iraq in 2011, so this isn’t really something new.
I would also point to the list of islamic countries that ban people from Israel (Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Yemen,
Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Algeria, Indonesia, and UAE).As for ISIS or any extremist groups who kill in the name of a religion (Islam or whatever other religion) to justify their barbaric behavior, well I’m not concerned by them. They don’t represent me and I don’t acknowledge them. For me and the most majority of Muslims those are criminals, who present a danger for the whole world, Muslims first since they use our young people (18-24) who represent the future of our countries, and my own country was a victim of them more than once, they didn’t even respect the place where the Prophet (PBUH) is buried and they made an attack, they didn’t respect dead people and they attacked Jewish cemetery, so they represent themselves, criminals who have to be put in jail and punished for their crimes the way they deserve.
ISIS mostly follows the same Salafist / Wahabi version of Islam as Saudi Arabia, do you also refuse to acknowlage them?
Again I will tell you that the Sharia has not to be applied in the Non-Muslim countries, since it concerns the way Muslims have to rule their countries and societies, unless the laws of other religions are taken into account in these countries, in this case Muslims’ rights have to be respected as well since they are a part of the society. If the other religious people can practice their religions freely, why Muslims cannot?
That isn’t what the people who want to implement Sharia in western countries think. In some (very small) areas we have self proclaimed ‘Sharia Police’ who will harass or even assault people for drinking alcohol, it doesn’t matter if they are Muslim or not.
Free practice of religious does not allow the practice of things that would violate the law, the same applies to Christians who would want to stone gay people to death or any other religious practice.
Financial laws, the distribution of legacy between the hires, etc… you have to look above punishments which are the only thing that most people criticizing Islam are focusing on. We, as Muslims, do not live with a knives in our hands, and you have just to look in History books to see how Muslims were in the past, when they were really appliying the laws as they have to be applied.
I don’t know what history books you have in Morocco. Every time Islamic law has been applied in the west it has been oppressive to non-muslims, I will name the Cordoba Caliphate as one example of this, in which most of the Christian population in Iberia was either killed or fled north to escape Cordoba.
Before punishing them, they talk to them, or at least they have to talk to them, and try to understand why they change their mind, and they give them a period to think about their decision.
This is an attempt to force them to pretend to be Muslim by threatening them with punishment, nothing more.
Well rewards are basically related to God’s satisfaction. If you pray, fast, do good deeds to other people (Muslims or not), being good and respectful to your parents, work hard (whether in a Muslim country or not), doing your obligations as they have to be done and other things, then your reward will be the satisfaction of God, and you’ll enter the Paradise (yes we believe in the life of hereafter).
I’m familiar with Islamic views of afterlife. I wouldn’t consider this to be a reward though.
Just for the Quran if you find its explanation (the explanation of Ibn Kathir (the name of the author) is the most used among Muslims) they would help you to understand it more. As for Sharia, I think books of Imam Malik, especially Al mouwatae (if you can find its translation), are more suitable for you, he’s known to be very moderate, and here in morocco our laws are basically based on his knowledge.
I will look into these.
And if you’re in England you can see Professors (again Muslims or not) at Universities, of course if you’re very interested in good discussions with people with good background about Islam.
I would not trust university professors at all with something like this, universities in the UK and the US are heavily politicised.
I said choice because there are some psychologists who said that it can be “cured”, so I don’t know either!!!
Yes it’s theoretically possible to change a person’s sexuality, this is something I had arguments with people over in the chat rooms here a few weeks ago actually.
But if you give people the right drugs and psychological conditioning you can make them do or believe pretty much anything.
I know that was very long, but I has to explain some points so that my conscience would be comfortable.
I don’t mind long posts, I like the discussion.
To answer your first question about feminism and Sharia, Yes you can be a Muslim woman and a feminist in the same time. Actually we took our rights as Muslim women to study, work, and take our decisions alone because of Islam, since there was a time when Muslim men tried to oppress women in the name of Islam too, using some Quran verses in the wrong time and place, but that was blocked by defending our rights using religious texts.
I know that you can be both a muslim and a femminist, although I strongly disagree with both ideologies.
My issue is more with the specific version of Islam that is promoted by the women’s march in the US. Linda Sarsour thinks that womens rights should be the same as in Saudi Arabia, which is very oppressive to women.
When I mentioned the mutual respect of culture, I implied the respect of being different since we’re not all the same, we’ve not the same background and traditions, so as long as my culture doesn’t harm or bother the others then at least you can respect it, otherwise we can’t coexist!!! As for the respect of law, I would do the same if I come to your country, this is so logical!
Respect is something that has to be earned, not given freely. It would be very hard for a culture that would imprison me for being attracted to the wrong person to earn my respect. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t coexist, we are speaking to each other without any problems.
Concerning the application of Sharia in England and the other countries, well what is said in Islam is the Sharia law hasn’t to be applied on non-Muslims, and if there are non-muslims who live in Muslim countries, the only case when the Sharia (or Islamic law) is applied for them is in the case of legal disputes, since the law is based on Islam, other than that they have the freedom to exercise their religions as they want (I’m talking about what is stated in religious texts and what our Prophet (Peace be upon him) has done in his time, not about what people actually do these days, which can be, unfortunately, very far from what should be done).
They are free as long as they pay Jizya (also speaking of what is stated in religious texts). I think that ISIS is the only place that currently implements that.
But even if it was only applied to muslims in England, that would still lead to many situations which are in conflict with British law. Any punishments that Sharia would place on homosexual people would be in violation of anti-discrimination laws. Sharia marriages are also not officially recognised, so cannot resolve conflicts in courts of law.
I don’t see how many elements of Sharia could be officially recognised in England without removing legal protections that exist for a good reason. I think sometimes our anti-discrimination laws are applied when sometimes they shouldn’t be, but that is a different discussion (one that involves cake shops).
And now I can recall that there was an Egyptian actress, who is Christian, who wants to get her divorce but she couldn’t do it religiously since there was some complications (I can’t remember what was exactly, but I think it’s banned in their sect to do so), so she did it in the Islamic way by asking for divorce in the court (which based on Islamic law), since Muslim women have the right to ask for divorce and they get it.
I don’t know how marriage works in Egypt, but that wouldn’t be possible (or required) in England. Marriages are legal contracts and they can only be terminated in a court of law. This isn’t the case in all western countries which is why gay marriage isn’t allowed in Germany for example.
The problem with apostates is that they start trying to make the others leave their religion, and in history most cases when the punishment was applied was for political reasons to keep the Islamic countries bind together. That’s the danger disturbing from apostasy. And before declaring someone as an apostate there are lot of conditions that has to be fulfilled, and the punishment, if there is any, it has to be done by the assigned authorities who made their investigations and all, not by normal citizens, otherwise things will be more out of hands and anyone can point anyone as an apostate.
Collectivist ideologies are always oppressive in this manner, be it a religion or something like communism. The solution should be to examine why people would want to leave your religion and to fix the problems, not to punish them and make others fearful to leave themselves.
So Sharia is not only punishments and rewards, it’s also about what we do in our daily life.
What rewards are given under Sharia? I have only ever seen punishments.
Unfortunately I don’t have a name of a book in English, but what I would suggest you is to read the translation of Quran and its explanation (without a judgmental eye, otherwise you won’t understand anything in it), and the books of Al Bukhari and Muslim (it’s the name of the author) for the good classified Hadiths.
I own a Quran (English translation), and I have read it. I have also read some of the Hadiths, but I will look into the ones that you named when I have time.
I said more liberal, not the most. Our law is based on religious laws that was modified by religious scientists to fit with our modern life, since in Islam Homosexuality is not accepted so of course it will not be in our law (we are not the only one in the world, even in some occidental countries the marriage of homosexual people was accepted just some years ago).
It’s certainly not unique to Islam, as I said earlier in this post that gay marriage is illegal in Germany.
But that doesn’t mean they are killed or something like that by the <u>authorities</u>, they can be jailed for a moment, if it was very clear that they are homosexual, but nothing more than that. And just that I won’t be attacked!!! I’m not homophobic;
They are killed in some places, such as Saudi Arabia. But do you think that putting gay people in prison is acceptable?
It’s their decision, and their responsibility to assume their choices.
It’s not a choice to be homosexual, although people who think it is determined at birth are also wrong.
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Its nearly unheard of for jewish people, even hardcore zionists demand that kosher food be made available to them. This is not the case with islamists and halal food.
I should clarify, on this point specificially the problem is more people on the left who demand it on behalf of muslims. But that doesn’t excuse the few muslims who do demand it.
Well who asked you to apply the Sharia law in your country ? You’ve your own law, we have ours, and the important is to respect each other’s cultures, very simple, No?
I don’t see why I have to respect your culture, but I would follow your laws if I visited Morocco. The problem is that people do ask to apply Sharia in England, and in other western countries.
What do you say about the Great betrayal? Has it to be illegal or not? Because apostasy is considered as a Great betrayal not only in islam but in the other monotheistic religions too, and again there are lot of conditions which has to be fulfilled before declaring a person as an apostate, and a danger for Muslims’ security.
Why is an apostate a danger to anyone’s security?
People’s lives are very much in danger if they are open about being ex-muslim on social media, even here in England. This isn’t the case with other religions.
making Islam a life style not only a religion
This is the part that many people here don’t understand about Islam, that I have tried to explain to them.
They are not legally enforced!!! These are Muslims’ festivals, (just like Christmas Eve or any other festival for the other religions) moments of joy, how can they be enforced?
This is one point I will admit I might be wrong on, but why are they specifically named in Sharia if not to enforce them?
There is no reason to ban the consumption of pork or alcohol. Drugs are also illegal, but I don’t think some of them should be.
I gave you the answer before, as for Pork, just like in Judaism, so why is it “odd” in islam?
Its nearly unheard of for jewish people, even hardcore zionists demand that kosher food be made available to them. This is not the case with islamists and halal food.
Using and electroshock or strangling it isn’t as well, and they make the animal suffer more than in the case of cutting the throat in the good way.
My limited understanding of animal slaughter is that we do it by driving a steel bolt directly into the skull, causeing instant death.
As a conclusion I would tell you that you have to look read more about the Sharia law, if you are interested of course.
If you can provide me with a source that you think is reliable then I will read it.
For the Saudi Arabia, they apply the Sharia law, but they mixe it with the traditions, especially when it concerns woman (example: driving cars by women is not forbidden in Islam and there is no Hadith or Surat in the Quran that prohibit that).
Cars didn’t exist when Sharia was developed, so I wouldn’t expect their to be laws about them. This is also a weakness of Sharia, in that it is difficult to modernise.
In morocco we have more liberal laws, which are made taking into account of the religious laws, and none is forced to what he doesn’t want to do.
Homosexuality is illegal in Morocco, that isn’t very liberal.
Sorry if my English is bad, It’s my third language.
Your English is good, better than many native speakers, lol. It’s my second lanuage.
I don’t really like SNL’s version of Trump, but here is one of their segments if you haven’t seen it before:
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Drac makes some very good points destroying most of the gibberish you write with counter arguments… you are fairly inarticulate with a lack of decent comprehension or perspective relating to anything
I think that Skep is naive on contemporary social issues, but I wouldn’t discredit him so much. He had very valid points that I agreed with on cultural relativism, for example.
And don’t call him a sex pest please, I don’t think it’s justified.
All you seem able to type is continually calling Trump “chump”
I don’t really see the point in refusing to use his name either.
I don’t really have a specific point to make, I just want to have a conversation about it. I don’t really have a lot of time to do research until I go back to England next week.
I have been made aware new information regarding one of the people who gave a talk and was officially endorsed by the movement. Her name is Donna Hylton, who was conviceted of kidnapping, torture and murder. She doesn’t think these actions were wrong because the victim was ‘a homo’.
I don’t really like to judge people too much on their past actions, but the severity of her crimes makes it questionable why the movement has chosen to associate with her and her personal views.
Salut,
Bienvenue a Just Chat!
Quel est le mot?It was pretty well done, although I have never liked laugh tracks.
This thread is very off topic now, I wanted to talk about the alliance between elements of the femminist movement and islamists.
