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I am disapointed in your response Scep.
There are not really any shared values between Brits of Afro-Caribbean descent, Brits of African descent, or the Bangladeshi community in Tower Hamlets, or the various Indian communities of Brits of Indian descent. Some of these communities are very poor, or have a greater degree of unemployment; others, like the Indian community, have proved (for social reasons) to be very successful, more successful in educational attainment and in employment, than the white Brits. There are also not really any shared values between white Brits. The north Welsh have a very different culture than the south Welsh, and both are very distinct from the English.
You are dividing people up by race, i’m starting to think what BB said about you being racist my have some truth to it. People don’t think the same as each other because they have the same skin colour. A white working class man has a lot more in common with an Indian working class man than a white middle class man.
In regards to shared values, I think there is a lot more shared values that you seem to think. For example I think a large majority of British people, regardless of background would object to punishing a shoplifter by cutting off their hands. This is a shared value, and one that Sharia would undermine.
Some of these communities are very poor, or have a greater degree of unemployment; others, like the Indian community, have proved (for social reasons) to be very successful, more successful in educational attainment and in employment, than the white Brits.
Racially segregated residential areas aren’t a community, they are an enclave and shouldn’t exist. The reason that Indians do better than other minorities is that they live with other British people and participate in the culture and economy that exists outside. This is what I want all minority groups to do. But you seem call this identity politics for some reason.
The Scots have divisions all of their own, apart from an ambiguous feeling against the English (try going into the William Wallace pub in Stirling and saying “what-ho, well old chaps?” See what happens to you.
You are talking about a minority of Scotish people here, most of them are Unionists and see English people the same as other Scots.
So a limited number of shared values, a divers set of cultures. The problem wiht muslim integration lies in their adherence to the sharia, and that has been the subject of debate throughout this thread. I don’t think any of the contributors want a community in which the sharia would replace British law – that would not be part of our shard values.parts of sharia law, including the limited role of sharia courts as advisory bodies, is acceptable as far as I understand things.
Advising to cut people’s hands off isn’t something I am willing to accept, and I don’t think most people in Britain would be. I will always have a zero tollerance stance towards Sharia. You can’t select which parts of Sharia are compatible, they are the divine laws of Allah. To do this would be an insult to their god, at least for the fundementalists. Once you have officially accepted any part of Sharia there will always be a movement to fully implement it, and it will by financed from countries like Saudi.
There are tension, and oddbods like BB rant and rave, others actually attack mosques etc, but for the vast majority of Brits, our share values of tolerance for minorities is seeing us through.
This discussion is about what happens when a minority doesn’t tollerate you, to which you haven’t been able to provide any solutions.
Your conception of identity politics seems to mean an end to this shared value, which goes back centuries, in favour of an atavistic idea of a Britain which existed in childhood memories. Wake up.
I don’t understand what you are trying to say, my childhood memories are either in France or in England but being unable to communicate with anyone because I didn’t speak English.
Cultures have shared values, countries are political entities covering a geographic area. If a country had shared values, then that removes a big source of conflict, but you can’t force shared values of that kind. What you can have is a system of laws which reflect an evolving set of values. But shared values are not set in stone, especially in a rapidly changing world such as ours. You really can’t stop the world and get off; not even North Korea.
I should have worded my response better, I used the word country because I was talking about Britain in which the culture has fairly clearly defined geographical boundaries. The sea doesn’t really care about culture much.
You have a very warped view of the Left. I don’t seek to segregate people by gender or race, though I do recognise that there are left-wing people who do want that. There are racial and gender issues, however, whihc are very real and won’t go away by your denoundcig them as just identity politics..
Both Labour and Greens are trying to segregate people, which only really leaves SNP which I wouldn’t be able to vote for (if I wanted to vote left) as they don’t field many candidates in England. So my view of the left wing in England at least seems fairly accurate.
And race / gender issues mostly go away when you stop talking about them. Look at what identity politics has done to race relations in the US for example (under a black pressident even).
All the new authoritarian Right make populist noises, but their politics is one of national identity. It’s an identity politics all of its own, and you can’t go round denouncing identity politics without admitting that you have them.
National identity with the aims to unify people instead of dividing them by race or gender, yes. I don’t really see the problem with this particular version of identity politics. If you have any other solutions then please tell me.
The identity politics of the Authoritarian Right is a sham. The talk is of the people, but the reality is that the nation doesn’t actually have shared interests. There a re the values of many white working-class people – who feel left on the shelf, excluded from prosperity – and the politics of bankers like Goldman Sachs and bank of America. The Right talk of the nation, of the people, but look at Trump’s team – they’re from Goldman Sachs. people shout blue murder at bankers – but the bankers are now in charge in the USA.
Trump’s team is similar to ones Clinton would have picked, her short list of candidates was leaked recently. This is more an issue of corruption in the US government than it is left / right politics.
The fact that UKIP are attacking Labour’s northern strongholds, exploiting the discontent there by making myths about immigrants being the cause of the problems of ordinary people, is playing on an ugly identity politics.
I showed you a Bank Of England study in another thread describing how immigration depresses wages. Its not a myth, and this is one of few things I agree with SHR on.
Farage wants the NHS closed down and replaced with some kind of private system of health insurance, but that was played down. They’re a con party of the worst kind, full of easy slogans and and an economic strategy of nationalism which endangers us all.
I don’t know what Farage personly wants, but he isn’t in charge anymore and UKIPs official policy has always been to increase NHS funding. If they actually would do this or not I don’t know. The main problem with UKIP is their energy policy, which is aweful.
Drac, you denounce identity politics, but you are one of the real advocates of identity politics on these boards. The identity politics you advocate is national identity, which you see as far more important than identity by religion or a feeling of exclusion.
I will provide an example of why a country should have some degree of shared values. The Dutch government has a party called Denk, which in reality is loyal to Turkey not the Netherlands. This allows Erdogan to indirectly have influence in Dutch politics. They currently have seats because they seperated from an existing party and were allowed to inherit some of their seats, I hope that they will be losing them in the next election there. This should not be something that is allowed to happen.
The identity that matters to me is the identity of being excluded, of being downtrodden, of being beaten up and tortured for what you are. That’s why I’m on the Left, and hate the whole politics of UKIP, Trump and the new authoritarian Right, chock-full of patriots (Dr Johnson: Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel)
Do you actually know what UKIPs policies are? Some of them are quite left wing, free university courses (STEM only), and they are talking about a universal basic income. The identity politics of the left is to segregate people by race and sexuality. I don’t like this at all, and for the most part the right doesn’t try to do this at all.
My message has appeared in my inbox now finally.
I’d like to ask Tinsel if she thinks Drac, who wasn’t born in this country, has from what I recall parents from 2 different nations is English or British.
To be specific, my biological parents are from Spain and either Norway or Sweden, i’m not clear. But I was adopted by an English family, who lived in France briefly.
But I will welcome any opinions on this, I still think of myself as English.
Dear me….I am assuming now you are English because you have no foreign accent? Yes that definitely makes you English …..good one
That was one minor implication of what I said yes, but I meant more the way that I speak and my interests and views.
Remainers aren’t as identifiable as Muslims anyway. I don’t go to the Remain Church or wear a Remain veil etc.
High Priest Juncker blesses you!
I think you’re missing Ms K’s point, drac, but I’m not going to put words in her mouth.
She’s trying to be an arbiter of who is truely English and who isn’t, which is ironically what she is accusing me of.
But BB can blame an anti-Muslim Muslim who’s also a racist – like me. In fact, he already does in his long rants – oh sorry, his well-thought out essays
I think the people BB was talking about are the cultural relativists, you saw how Tapioca tried to justify the execution of gays in Saudi.
For example I did NOT mention race in regards to Muslims and there you are “putting words in my mouth” because you suggest I did.
You even describe Muslims like they are another species, a sub species. Just pin a star on their chest and be done with it.
You seem to have suggested there is a racial component of being a muslim in this message.
You have CLEARLY stated previously on this thread, that you have an issue with ALL Muslims in Europe (including British Muslims)
Nope, that is definitely not my oppinion
who refuse to accept your brand of Western Christian liberal fundamentalism which personally, I found rather chilling and sinister to read.
Again with me being a fundamentalist christian?
Hi Martin……when I log in I have the number 2 up by my logged in name top right hand side……I know usually this means there are private messages…..I did have an exchange with someone who basically ballsed it up and no message arrived as such…..how do I get rid of the number because every time I log in I think I’m super popular and I’ve received a message only to find out it’s the same problem with no message
It’s doing that to me now too, saying I have a private message. But its not in my inbox.
Where do you think a pet pigeon comes from then drac …. Pets at Home ?
I assume that people probably breed them, the people that race them and such.
