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” Good on him , one less scumbag in the world to deal with. In America the boards would not even be debating this online but of course here it’s a “wicked old man”.
Actually this situation is a huge talking point in America , The Byron David Smith Killings is one case . This guy ” lay in wait” for his 2 teenage victims , he shot them separately and minutes apart, So he was convicted of 2 counts of first degree murder with premeditation and 2 counts of 2nd degree murder, his sentence, Life Imprisonment without parole. In the US they have the ”castle doctrine” which allows a home owner to defend his home with lethal force, however the law doesn’t allow you to execute someone when the threat is gone, ie: running away…. so in this case the first shot wounded one teenager, threat removed ! he carried on shooting then went and shot the other teenage girl, he had moved his car away from his home to make it look he wasn’t at home, used, prosecutors say, as a lure, he also video’d the whole thing, capturing the shootings and his monologue.
”Lying in wait” is a legal term in the castle doctrine, simplistically put , you cant use a ‘set up’ to lay waiting for the intruder so you can kill them on your property. 92% of US states consider ‘lying in wait’ 1st degree murder.
It’s really a hot debate over there !!!
TBH American law is more farcical than Uk law and in many murder cases the courts are kangaroo courts with the evidence needed to convict fairly minimal compared to over here. You may be familiar with the ” hiccup killer ” who was on a piers morgan documentary some time back – she had a bf who killed some ex lover of hers but the court accepted she only meant for him to be beaten up. Florida law states that it’s irrelevant and she is guilty of murder even tho she was 100 miles away at the time.
My point which seems to have been lost once again, is the ” law ” is irrelevant in this debate when discussing what’s right or wrong. Any person here could be found guilty of something leading to incarceration , it’s only the clinically insane like Hugs and Winks who would think otherwise as he phones Scotland yard above it all.
Rude I know what you are saying, well I hope I do, we all know the difference about right and wrong, whats acceptable or not, and that the courts don’t always reflect that or what public opinion is. For example, I personally think goading Jamie about gypsies is uncalled for and petty, maybe to you its harmless and I’m sure you will say ” there’s far worse things in this world to worry about etc etc bloody snowflakes getting offended over this and that” don’t get me wrong, I’m NOT offended by it, I just thought there was no need…. I was offended by a picture of a chained up Dog/Wolf being trained to attack other dogs used as bate, as I explained. Jamie is more than capable of being offended for herself, tho I know for a fact she’s been called a lot worse and more than likely just swiped it away, !! However, this thread was about a specific case, that of Tony Martin, be you for or against him the facts are what I presented to you, now you can say that’s all a crock to cover up this or that, but like you said we need some form of laws and structure or we couldn’t survive as a society, you don’t want to pay poll tax etc but to an extent you have to tow the line. So, the courts found him guilty, 12 good men and all that …. He shot ‘someone’ be they 16 or 60, be they a gypsy or a kid with downs syndrome, be they black or white, he knew he was going to do it, he waited for them and shot them in the back as they tried to retreat. No one is saying its ok to break in and steal, everyone agree’s you should be able to protect your property and yourself and family, if under threat of harm ! He wasn’t under threat of harm. The ‘Law’ says that’s wrong. You may disagree, that’s your prerogative, most agree tho that its wrong to kill someone for stealing. As for American justice, well it changes so much from state to state there’s no hard fast rule, however I think you’ll find that their justice system can be and is a lot tougher than here, in some states ! I’d have thought you would have approved of that. Anyway, this debate was about ‘The Law’ to some extent, so it could never have been irrelevant to it.
Tha’ts fine Scep and thanks for responding, I’ll wait till you’re ready. I wouldn’t want to drive anyone away either. Different things upset different people. Some may get upset by, in my opinion, mild name calling, normally born out of frustration,( and I’m not keen on Rudes use of language a lot of the time, even when not directed at me,) other people get upset by being spoken to as if they are insignificant, weak minded, a bit simple, of no value, not worthy of consideration….. Ce la vie…..
Jamie, you do realise that when people start making a personal attack for no reason such as ‘fealds, gypo scum, caravans etc’ it’s because they look a bit silly…..
e, unfortunately his new defence team used evidence of a mental health issue which the Judges could not morally dismiss.
Utter rubbish, he was let out due to public outrage not a psych report which was used as an excuse. Find me an eg of a killer blowing someones head off doing just 3 years in prison based on a psych report.
The courts, the judges, every man and his dog bar a few liberals felt Tony Martin was harshly treated and these reports were used to cover up a gaping gap in the law instead of admitting the real reason they let him out.
Infact in the years since, new laws have come out regarding the rights of the homeowner directly as a consequence of the Tony Martin case giving homeowners far more power and protection against arrest for dealing with vermin
well that may be your expert opinion, he did have some support, not that much, the police set up camp outside his house due to the anger towards him from the majority of the public, after he was released. You can ”bullshit” all you like Rude, I’m just stating facts, not just my opinion …. They had to release him after 3 years as manslaughter holds a mandatory sentence and 3 years is the longest you can imprison someone unless they show bad behaviour… oh and he didn’t blow his head off he shot him in the back
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This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by mooosey88.
So basically even in Rootin’ Tootin’ Gun happy America they realise that to kill in these circumstances, ie: planned and ”lying in wait” … well…. it’s ‘well fucked up ‘ !!
” Good on him , one less scumbag in the world to deal with. In America the boards would not even be debating this online but of course here it’s a “wicked old man”.
Actually this situation is a huge talking point in America , The Byron David Smith Killings is one case . This guy ” lay in wait” for his 2 teenage victims , he shot them separately and minutes apart, So he was convicted of 2 counts of first degree murder with premeditation and 2 counts of 2nd degree murder, his sentence, Life Imprisonment without parole. In the US they have the ”castle doctrine” which allows a home owner to defend his home with lethal force, however the law doesn’t allow you to execute someone when the threat is gone, ie: running away…. so in this case the first shot wounded one teenager, threat removed ! he carried on shooting then went and shot the other teenage girl, he had moved his car away from his home to make it look he wasn’t at home, used, prosecutors say, as a lure, he also video’d the whole thing, capturing the shootings and his monologue.
”Lying in wait” is a legal term in the castle doctrine, simplistically put , you cant use a ‘set up’ to lay waiting for the intruder so you can kill them on your property. 92% of US states consider ‘lying in wait’ 1st degree murder.
It’s really a hot debate over there !!!
1 member liked this post.
I agree Jamie, but our opinions don’t count. The court actually got it right ! He was convicted of premeditated Murder and sentenced to life, unfortunately his new defence team used evidence of a mental health issue which the Judges could not morally dismiss. Sometimes life is just shit.
In one breath you say’ The Law’ reduced his sentence because they realised it wasn’t premeditated murder !! ( which it actually was and which was the correct verdict) A wrong had been righted in your opinion, then when you find out it was only reduced because the solitary old recluse, living in a derelict bombsite has a personality disorder and therefore could not be held fully responsible, well the sly old bugger played the system … incidentally, the Pysch report was done for the first trial, not since, bad defence team in my opinion ….
Rudeboy:
”Another pet hate of mine is this nonsense of “mental health” that’s reeled out as an excuse to mitigate crime….If I say I’m depressed and go out and gut someone like a fish, backed up by a little letter from a doctor confirming my “mental health” problems, does that mean I get a lesser sentence than someone who is a happy go lucky type of chappy singing jingle bells? ”
His sentence was reduced to one of Manslaugter, specifically on the grounds of diminished responsibility, so basically, he got off with Murder because of mental health issues !
so ? I wouldn’t have charged him in the first place. Quite obviously he played the silly system to get the lowest sentence – who can blame him? If I blew a gypos brains out , I’d try to plead insanity as well calling Sophia in as lead witness
Lol Why ‘ quite obviously ‘? So he wasn’t a paranoid schizophrenic at all, despite what the psychiatrists said ? Why ? Because it suit’s your argument ? Oh come on Rude, I expect better than that from you… You can’t have it both ways, condemn people using mental health issues as a way of mitigating crime then say in ‘this case’ he just played the system !
Rudeboy:
”Another pet hate of mine is this nonsense of “mental health” that’s reeled out as an excuse to mitigate crime….If I say I’m depressed and go out and gut someone like a fish, backed up by a little letter from a doctor confirming my “mental health” problems, does that mean I get a lesser sentence than someone who is a happy go lucky type of chappy singing jingle bells? ”
His sentence was reduced to one of Manslaugter, specifically on the grounds of diminished responsibility, so basically, he got off with Murder because of mental health issues !
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This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by
