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Posts
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How can the remoaners faith be dented ffs? The majority said leave, so leave we should, even with no deal.
No matter what happens Theresa Betray will survive, Scep. I’m sure she’ll think of you while she sips pimms on some warm beach with her mate Cameron.
I’m prepared to place good money on a bet that Mrs May will not be thinking of me as she sits drinking pimm’s anywhere in the world
Everything sis till to play for if May’s deal fails – if. Even the catastrophe of a No-Deal Brexit.
If the majority say we should leave with no deal, then that’s what will happen, and God help us all.
If the majority say we remain, then we remain, much to my peasure but that pleasure is mixed with apprehension a to the social consequences of extreme frustration by the Brexit camp.. Nothing to stop Leavers organising for another referendum, as Remainers did.
The reason we’re in this mess is nothing to do with May being useless – she’s shown an amazing ability to push on through so far – and it’s nothing to do with Remainers organising (even with their getting 700,000 on the streets).
It’s everything to do with the fact that you can’t leave the EU and avoid a hard border in Ireland at the same time. One had to give. All the EU had to do was sit back and let the UK find a solution – their tough stance comes later.
May has tried her hardest to square the circle. Back her deal if you want to leave, because no other Brexiteer has managed to come up with a solution to that conundrum.
I’m pretty sure leave had the chance to get rid of may in June 2017 so they only got themselves to blame for her
Irish bordet was warned by remain would be impossible but dismissed by the no abortion even if raped supporting Rees mogg and the racist adultering Boris Johnson the poster boys of leave
2 members liked this post.
I said that this is an important point, and that I would answer it when I found the time…
The post points to a real problem of democracy at EU level, but creates a myth of a bullying EU in doing so.
Why are we not surprised that the EU have bullied us into a no win position ? After all they have form for it ?
Any country that has voted no has been forced to have a 2nd referendum, despite The EU proclaiming Democracy would be paramount and results would stand , they promise all kinds of opt-outs and basically sell a lie , get the result they want in the 2nd referendum then conveniently renege on any promises or force through new legislation or a new treaty which makes all other deals , promises or treaty’s null and void.
When France voted NO to the ”Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe” with 55% followed by the Netherlands with a resounding 61% NO majority , referendums were swiftly cancelled in Poland, Portugal, Ireland, The UK and Denmark . The EU promised AGAIN to respect the results… However then The Lisbon Treaty replaced the Constitution for Europe Treaty, practically Identical in every way , this was pushed through French and Dutch parliaments WITHOUT a referendum !! Sneaky eh, so much for respecting the democratic results !! And people don’t think they are Bullies ? pfffft yea right …..
Actually, bullying by the EU is not what actually happened. Something very important took place, but it wasn’t EU bullying.
Under EU rules, a change to the constitution had to be passed unanimously by parliamentary vote or referendum etc. No 2nd referendum would be allowed (contrary to ms M’s post). When in 2005 the new constitutional changes were proposed – changes which balanced a less ramshackle and less unresponsive bureaucracy with the irreducible national basis of the EU – it was voted down as Ms M stated by decisive referendums in France and the Netherlands. The rules of the EU had to be respected. No constitutional changes would be allowed.
It wasn’t the EU which went around these decisions, though, but the national governments, which had come to dread a referendum in their own country on the issue. Blair’s Labour Government was particularly relieved at not having to hold a referendum. They decided to change the process form a constitutional change – involving the people being directly consulted – to an inter-governmental conference. That meant that all the democratically elected governments met together to create an international treaty – The Treaty of Lisbon (with the Article 50 for leaving the EU which the May so foolishly invoked nearly two years ago).
It wasn’t the “EU” which by-passed the popular vote, but the national governments which made up the EU. These national governments make up the ultimate decision-maker within the EU.
It was a ‘bullying”, even dangerous attitude to the popular will (much more decisive than the very close 2016 referendum), but it wasn’t a result of “EU” bullying.
There is a fundamental lack of a proper democracy within the EU, though, but Britain under Blair and Cameron were full partners in this ‘democratic deficit’. Instead of fighting for a fully democratic EU, a closer control of the European Commission by ordinary people instead of by national governments, Britain spent its time demanding tighter controls on immigration in a dishonest attempt to pander to popular fears back home.
It was dishonest because the British government knew that immigration was essential to a dynamic economy, and cheap immigration too. Union attempts to organise immigrant labour were hardly encouraged, and illegal labour was brought in with horrifying results on Morecambe Bay.
The EU ‘bullying’ we’ve seen is actually the EU negotiating team using their superior skills to gut the British attempt at a Brexit which would be beneficial to Britain and harmful to Europe. Instead, the reality is that brexit has become harmful to Britain as the EU uses to superior strength to push the UK around – and it’s only just begun!
The UK has spent most of the past two centuries pushing people around because of its strength. Now, because of the foolish Brexit decision based on fantasy about British strength, it’s the UK’s turn to know what it feels like to be faced with such superior strength as the EU and the USA – it will not be nice for Britain, and that means for you and your families, and for me and my family. We’ll all suffer int eh same lifeboat cast out on rough seas without a paddle.
I’m pretty sure leave had the chance to get rid of may in June 2017 so they only got themselves to blame for her
Irish bordet was warned by remain would be impossible but dismissed by the no abortion even if raped supporting Rees mogg and the racist adultering Boris Johnson the poster boys of leave
Remember it was may who was responsible for whipping up feelings about immigration and refugees when she was at the Home Office, creating the ‘hostile environment’ policy, sending vans out with ‘you are not welcome here type’ slogans painted on them, and creating the conditions for the dreadful suffering imposed on the Windrush generation.
I said that this is an important point, and that I would answer it when I found the time…
The post points to a real problem of democracy at EU level, but creates a myth of a bullying EU in doing so.
Why are we not surprised that the EU have bullied us into a no win position ? After all they have form for it ?
Any country that has voted no has been forced to have a 2nd referendum, despite The EU proclaiming Democracy would be paramount and results would stand , they promise all kinds of opt-outs and basically sell a lie , get the result they want in the 2nd referendum then conveniently renege on any promises or force through new legislation or a new treaty which makes all other deals , promises or treaty’s null and void.
When France voted NO to the ”Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe” with 55% followed by the Netherlands with a resounding 61% NO majority , referendums were swiftly cancelled in Poland, Portugal, Ireland, The UK and Denmark . The EU promised AGAIN to respect the results… However then The Lisbon Treaty replaced the Constitution for Europe Treaty, practically Identical in every way , this was pushed through French and Dutch parliaments WITHOUT a referendum !! Sneaky eh, so much for respecting the democratic results !! And people don’t think they are Bullies ? pfffft yea right …..
Actually, bullying by the EU is not what actually happened. Something very important took place, but it wasn’t EU bullying.
Under EU rules, a change to the constitution had to be passed unanimously by parliamentary vote or referendum etc. No 2nd referendum would be allowed (contrary to ms M’s post). When in 2005 the new constitutional changes were proposed – changes which balanced a less ramshackle and less unresponsive bureaucracy with the irreducible national basis of the EU – it was voted down as Ms M stated by decisive referendums in France and the Netherlands. The rules of the EU had to be respected. No constitutional changes would be allowed.
It wasn’t the EU which went around these decisions, though, but the national governments, which had come to dread a referendum in their own country on the issue. Blair’s Labour Government was particularly relieved at not having to hold a referendum. They decided to change the process form a constitutional change – involving the people being directly consulted – to an inter-governmental conference. That meant that all the democratically elected governments met together to create an international treaty – The Treaty of Lisbon (with the Article 50 for leaving the EU which the May so foolishly invoked nearly two years ago).
It wasn’t the “EU” which by-passed the popular vote, but the national governments which made up the EU. These national governments make up the ultimate decision-maker within the EU.
It was a ‘bullying”, even dangerous attitude to the popular will (much more decisive than the very close 2016 referendum), but it wasn’t a result of “EU” bullying.
There is a fundamental lack of a proper democracy within the EU, though, but Britain under Blair and Cameron were full partners in this ‘democratic deficit’. Instead of fighting for a fully democratic EU, a closer control of the European Commission by ordinary people instead of by national governments, Britain spent its time demanding tighter controls on immigration in a dishonest attempt to pander to popular fears back home.
It was dishonest because the British government knew that immigration was essential to a dynamic economy, and cheap immigration too. Union attempts to organise immigrant labour were hardly encouraged, and illegal labour was brought in with horrifying results on Morecambe Bay.
The EU ‘bullying’ we’ve seen is actually the EU negotiating team using their superior skills to gut the British attempt at a Brexit which would be beneficial to Britain and harmful to Europe. Instead, the reality is that brexit has become harmful to Britain as the EU uses to superior strength to push the UK around – and it’s only just begun!
The UK has spent most of the past two centuries pushing people around because of its strength. Now, because of the foolish Brexit decision based on fantasy about British strength, it’s the UK’s turn to know what it feels like to be faced with such superior strength as the EU and the USA – it will not be nice for Britain, and that means for you and your families, and for me and my family. We’ll all suffer int eh same lifeboat cast out on rough seas without a paddle.
Sorry Scep, I realise its taken along time to try and answer that one but that is absolute Tosh !! and it is only your opinion and not factual at all !
Yes it was the Governments in France and the Netherlands which pushed through on the 2nd referendums. the governments were all pro EU, were as the voters were not !! Obviously Blair was relieved to cancel the referendum as were all the others as they knew then that the result would be a No. Getting past everything on a parliamentary vote , knowing full well that it wasn’t what the voters wanted is disgraceful.
The FACTS stand that any country that has voted No has had a 2nd referendum, pushed through by Parliamentary votes or not ! The fact you think the EU had no say in anything or did not work in any way with the governments in these cases is ridiculous. We all know how deceptive governments are, you aren’t telling anyone anything they didn’t know.
The fact you say the EU is using its ‘superior negotiating skills’ is also very silly, its bullying to anyone else, whether we used our ‘ superior negotiating skills’ in the last 4 centuries is irrelevant.
the reality is that brexit has become harmful to Britain as the EU uses to superior strength to push the UK around – and it’s only just begun! it’s the UK’s turn to know what it feels like to be faced with such superior strength as the EU and the USA
Like I said. Bullying !!
In fact, this is exactly what the EU want to happen in the UK as well, scare everyone silly, as you try to do, and force a 2nd referendum, so everyone either thinks ”god I don’t want economic collapse, or I’m sick of it all just vote stay to shut them up”. It’s scaremongering at its worst. We are a Democracy, or supposed to be. We voted LEAVE. The decision should be upheld despite your wishes ! Had we voted stay I’d have had to lump it !! You can bet your bottom dollar there would be no talk of a 2nd referendum then !!
1 member liked this post.
Sorry, why is it tosh?
Let me put it at its simplest.
What I said was that the EU rules meant that there could be no constitutional change without a referendum.
The referendum said NO, and therefore there was no constitutional change.
There was no second referendum.
What happened instead (a move I described as dangerous) was an intergovernmental conference to create an intergovernmental treaty – the Treaty of Lisbon.
The EU is based on democratically elected governments. They are the irreducible core of the EU, which depends on agreement between governments at various levels. The decisions are monitored by the European Court of Justice.
Now – given that I said the move was dangerous – why should democratically elected governments not create a Treaty???? Please explain with more than assertions, and I’ll listen.
In fact, this is exactly what the EU want to happen in the UK as well, scare everyone silly, as you try to do, and force a 2nd referendum, so everyone either thinks ”god I don’t want economic collapse, or I’m sick of it all just vote stay to shut them up”. It’s scaremongering at its worst. We are a Democracy, or supposed to be. We voted LEAVE. The decision should be upheld despite your wishes ! Had we voted stay I’d have had to lump it !! You can bet your bottom dollar there would be no talk of a 2nd referendum then !!
Well, perhaps they’re doing such a good job because the No-Deal is very scary.
I’m sure there will be emergency arrangements – there’ll have to be –
but in what way will it not be seriously damaging???
Iif you have different facts other than the ones I’ve been reading, I’m listening very intently.
What do you mean there were no 2nd referendums ? which country are you referring to ? All that piffle does’nt change a damn thing, The Treaty of Lisbon pushed through by Pro Eu governments, without consulting the people, made nil and void any promises previously made by the EU in order to get a Yes vote. That is what happened. Theres no waffling around the end result however they got it !
I can understand that you worry about the UK cutting itself off from the EU trading block and what will happen to the economy because of it. I understand you have compassion for refugees etc, what I cannot fathom is why you LOVE the EU ( as a single machine) forcing people into submission to their will or fining already poor countries such as Greece and Italy ?
I mean you make excuses for their bullying behaviour and tactics all the time while still saying they will ‘turn even nastier’ ? Why do you love the EU so much ? It can’t be all about protecting people at work etc, The Health and Safety at work Act came about after the tragedy at Aberfan, we as a country are more than capable of making our own rules to protect people and workers etc, we don’t need the EU to do it ‘for us’ ??
Answer if you wish, I’m done arguing about it, sick to the back teeth of it all tbh, as I’m sure most people are. What will be will be and there’s not a damn thing we can do about it.
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This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by
mooosey88.
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