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I said that this is an important point, and that I would answer it when I found the time…
The post points to a real problem of democracy at EU level, but creates a myth of a bullying EU in doing so.
Why are we not surprised that the EU have bullied us into a no win position ? After all they have form for it ?
Any country that has voted no has been forced to have a 2nd referendum, despite The EU proclaiming Democracy would be paramount and results would stand , they promise all kinds of opt-outs and basically sell a lie , get the result they want in the 2nd referendum then conveniently renege on any promises or force through new legislation or a new treaty which makes all other deals , promises or treaty’s null and void.
When France voted NO to the ”Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe” with 55% followed by the Netherlands with a resounding 61% NO majority , referendums were swiftly cancelled in Poland, Portugal, Ireland, The UK and Denmark . The EU promised AGAIN to respect the results… However then The Lisbon Treaty replaced the Constitution for Europe Treaty, practically Identical in every way , this was pushed through French and Dutch parliaments WITHOUT a referendum !! Sneaky eh, so much for respecting the democratic results !! And people don’t think they are Bullies ? pfffft yea right …..
Actually, bullying by the EU is not what actually happened. Something very important took place, but it wasn’t EU bullying.
Under EU rules, a change to the constitution had to be passed unanimously by parliamentary vote or referendum etc. No 2nd referendum would be allowed (contrary to ms M’s post). When in 2005 the new constitutional changes were proposed – changes which balanced a less ramshackle and less unresponsive bureaucracy with the irreducible national basis of the EU – it was voted down as Ms M stated by decisive referendums in France and the Netherlands. The rules of the EU had to be respected. No constitutional changes would be allowed.
It wasn’t the EU which went around these decisions, though, but the national governments, which had come to dread a referendum in their own country on the issue. Blair’s Labour Government was particularly relieved at not having to hold a referendum. They decided to change the process form a constitutional change – involving the people being directly consulted – to an inter-governmental conference. That meant that all the democratically elected governments met together to create an international treaty – The Treaty of Lisbon (with the Article 50 for leaving the EU which the May so foolishly invoked nearly two years ago).
It wasn’t the “EU” which by-passed the popular vote, but the national governments which made up the EU. These national governments make up the ultimate decision-maker within the EU.
It was a ‘bullying”, even dangerous attitude to the popular will (much more decisive than the very close 2016 referendum), but it wasn’t a result of “EU” bullying.
There is a fundamental lack of a proper democracy within the EU, though, but Britain under Blair and Cameron were full partners in this ‘democratic deficit’. Instead of fighting for a fully democratic EU, a closer control of the European Commission by ordinary people instead of by national governments, Britain spent its time demanding tighter controls on immigration in a dishonest attempt to pander to popular fears back home.
It was dishonest because the British government knew that immigration was essential to a dynamic economy, and cheap immigration too. Union attempts to organise immigrant labour were hardly encouraged, and illegal labour was brought in with horrifying results on Morecambe Bay.
The EU ‘bullying’ we’ve seen is actually the EU negotiating team using their superior skills to gut the British attempt at a Brexit which would be beneficial to Britain and harmful to Europe. Instead, the reality is that brexit has become harmful to Britain as the EU uses to superior strength to push the UK around – and it’s only just begun!
The UK has spent most of the past two centuries pushing people around because of its strength. Now, because of the foolish Brexit decision based on fantasy about British strength, it’s the UK’s turn to know what it feels like to be faced with such superior strength as the EU and the USA – it will not be nice for Britain, and that means for you and your families, and for me and my family. We’ll all suffer int eh same lifeboat cast out on rough seas without a paddle.
Sorry Scep, I realise its taken along time to try and answer that one but that is absolute Tosh !! and it is only your opinion and not factual at all !
Yes it was the Governments in France and the Netherlands which pushed through on the 2nd referendums. the governments were all pro EU, were as the voters were not !! Obviously Blair was relieved to cancel the referendum as were all the others as they knew then that the result would be a No. Getting past everything on a parliamentary vote , knowing full well that it wasn’t what the voters wanted is disgraceful.
The FACTS stand that any country that has voted No has had a 2nd referendum, pushed through by Parliamentary votes or not ! The fact you think the EU had no say in anything or did not work in any way with the governments in these cases is ridiculous. We all know how deceptive governments are, you aren’t telling anyone anything they didn’t know.
The fact you say the EU is using its ‘superior negotiating skills’ is also very silly, its bullying to anyone else, whether we used our ‘ superior negotiating skills’ in the last 4 centuries is irrelevant.
the reality is that brexit has become harmful to Britain as the EU uses to superior strength to push the UK around – and it’s only just begun! it’s the UK’s turn to know what it feels like to be faced with such superior strength as the EU and the USA
Like I said. Bullying !!
I don’t think it is a conspiracy, I do think she did the best she could under impossible circumstances, I just wish she’d played hard ball a bit more. They were rude, ignorant, and bullying.
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One EU diplomat said that it’s going to be brutal, ruthless, and it’s proving to be just the start. They have fishing next i their sights, and then the money the UK continues to pay the EU, and then the trade deal. At each stage, they’re threatening to cause major disruption to the UK economy unless their demands are met. This show is set to keep going.”
Hang on… not so long ago you said they weren’t bullying us and in fact that they were ‘bending over backwards’ to help us get a good deal ?
Yep pretty much said the same thing !!
Democracy ? What a laugh ….
Oooo… Ello Milky !! I was starting to think you were a figment of my imagination !!!
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Hurry up with my wooly knickers woman!
Only one prob Nem, I can’t knit and the old dear doing them for me has forgotten how to !!
doh !!
Ill check out Amazon !!
I don’t need to ‘ forgive’ Jamie. She hasn’t done anything wrong, maybe she shouldn’t have mentioned Mizzy, but she didn’t make an unkind bitchy remark about her, she was reminding Linda that Mizzy also had issues and maybe needed a bit more help and understanding, that was all.
”we are all aware of your issues and to be honest none of us ever really take you seriously and most of us just disregard anything you say anyway. We are all used to you by now.”
Now that is what you call a bitchy remark.
I’m not sure who you think ‘we’ and ‘we are all ‘ are ?? I don’t know anyone who thinks that !
Please don’t speak for me. I take Jamie very seriously and value her contributions. I suggest you drop it. If anyone is ruining Nem’s excellent thread it’s your good self.
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Ok i know now x
I totally agree Dodger, but I am allowed to speak. yes it is about Nem ! however, some people use it as a thread to big themselves up and make out they are perfect. Maybe Mizzy shouldnt have been broughtup and I see your point, but she was brought up with the intention of pointing out that ” don’t be so understanding and mindful of everyone unless you back it up ” as in… dont be 2 faced while acting perfect.
Sorry Nem and Dodge, whoever you are…You done good girl…. I’m employing a knitter to make some winter knickers for that remote island you are going to !!! you’ll thank me I promise !!!
